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Accueil » news » forums » Space Empires V » Space Empires V General

running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical? Any advice appreciated.

Soumis par Dogboy le Jeu, 2008-07-31 11:54 Space Empires V General

I'm experiencing a lot of bugs associated with the combat engine, and I'd appreciate it if some of the more experienced players could let me know if this is to be expected, and if there is anything I can do to improve the situation.

We're playing: SE5 v1.74 with Balance Mod v1.14b (Folder name 110+)

We're now on turn 60, and only recently have been having much actual combat. So, a huge investment of time and effort by all players. Meticulous plans, alliances, careful research and colonization strategies. The works.

A few turns ago I began an assault on an enemy empire, and the combat engine just seems to have gone haywire. First, I sent my main assault fleet to an unoccupied planet with a small armed satellite in orbit. My fleet moved up to the satellite and stopped, without firing. Eventually, a kamikaze fighter arrived, but not before one of my cruisers was severely damaged and another was damaged as well.

The next turn, I moved the fleet to an occupied enemy planet, and the ships flew past the planet, firing as they went by, and went after a lone armed ship that had retreated to the other side of the map. I figures that this might not be a bug, since I had the ships set to fire at maximum range (I think) and armed ships might be treated as a higher priority under that order.

I left the ships over the planet, and switched them to "capture planet", after re-ordering the target priority list to put planetary defenses (satellites, weapons platforms, defensive and offensive bases (still not clear on what defensive and offensive mean in this context so I listed both) followed by colonized planet, followed by other targets. This time, many of my armed ships (missile ships, beam ships) stayed back from the battle, while my carriers charged right at the planet.

The planet had two small weapons platforms, which fired up at my carriers, damaging their armor. During the battle, I got a message indicating that ground combat had been initiated and I would get a report next turn. The two weapons platforms were still intact at the end of battle, so the fighters evidently didn't attack them.

This turn (the one following the ground combat message) I got no ground combat message, and every single combat report movie could not be loaded. Furthermore, my ships still haven't taken out the planet.

After all the careful planning and orchestration that went into fielding this massive assault fleet, I can't even take out a single lightly defended planet. It's disappointing to see all the time and effort my players and I have put into the first 60 turns be wiped out because the battle engine doesn't act rationally and combat reports sometimes can't even be opened.

Is this typical of the game? Any advice would be appreciated. We're on the brink of quitting the game if we can't figure out how to make the battles work.

Also, any advice on how to set up my battle strategies to kill the ships and units defending a planet without chasing around those that flee, and then attack the planet, would be appreciated.

Thanks!

‹ please help: "targeting priotity order" vs ."target type and order settings"? For SE6? Available planet tonnage should just be a single pool. ›
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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par Dogboy le Jeu, 2008-07-31 12:42

A couple of added points: I altered "capture planet" to put weapons platforms at the top of the target priority list. Having done that is it the case that ships with "Capture Planet" orders will NOT attack planetary defenses?? A friend thought that might be the explanation, but if it is true, how DO I get fleets to attack planetary defenses before moving carriers / troop ships in?

Also, he thought that carrier ships (troop or fighter carriers) with "capture planet" orders will NOT wait until planetary defenses are eliminated before moving in to "drop troops.", possibly explaining the reason why my carriers charged ahead and got damaged. Is that true?

As for my fighters initiating ground combat - he thinks that only those "dropped" by your carriers (not previously launched for space combat) would conduct ground attacks. He thinks it's possible that those fighters were eliminated quickly by the ground defenses present on the planet and therefore I didn't get a ground combat report. Does that make sense? Also, if fighters can only be in ground combat if they are "dropped" not launched, then how do I keep them from getting launched in the first place?

Thanks,
DB

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par Dogboy le Jeu, 2008-07-31 13:06

P.S. Is there a "how to attack a planet" FAQ or tutorial somewhere for SEV?

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par Brad le Jeu, 2008-07-31 16:42

If your fleet is on "capture planet" strategy nothing will shoot at it while you have troops on board a ship (any ship at all). Your troopships will attempt to drop troops on the planet but everything else will avoid it.

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par Dogboy le Jeu, 2008-07-31 17:20

Thanks for the tip. I didn't have troops, but I did have fighters. They supposedly did initiate ground combat, but there was no report. And, since I can't watch any of the movies, I don't know what my fleet on the turn when I should have had ground combat. Could they possibly have attacked the planet since there (may have been?) no more fighters in my carriers?

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par BlueTemplar le Jeu, 2008-07-31 17:53

Also, the fighters launched by the planet WILL be present during ground combat.

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par capnq le Ven, 2008-08-01 07:02

Are you putting the entire fleet in a single task force? Have you tried using multiple task forces with different strategy settings for each task force?

-----
"Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyore gloomily. "If it /is/ a good morning," he said. "Which I doubt," said he.

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par rditto48801 le Ven, 2008-08-01 12:32

I see a few possible problems, and other things that are more restrictions or limitations of the game.
(I am far from being an expert, so I could be wrong on some things)

1:
Capture Planet strategy.
It is set by default (in stock anyways) to launch all units in combat. If a ship carries fighters and can launch them, it will do so.
The carrier launched the fighters it was going to invade the planet with.
Simple fix, either use more specialized 'troop transport' that cannot launch fighters, or change the auto-launch value for the Capture Planet strategy to false, or even copy the Capture Planet to make an alternate one for carriers.

2:
No troops.
Heck, no 'troop transports'
Unless I am mistaken, that right there could be a major obstacle in plans to capture a planet.
Sure, you could capture planets without specialized troop transports, but not having troops at all is a major flaw in any plan to capture planets, IMO.
I don't even know if a planet can be successfully captured without troops, even if all enemy ground forces were destroyed in a ground battle using just fighters.

3:
Ships chasing down an enemy ship and only firing at stuff that is 'in range'.
Once a target is selected, as ship will chase it down until the target is no longer valid, retreats, or either it or itself is destroyed. It will still fire at targets of oppertunity with weapons not occupied with firing at the target.

4:
Max Range problem
Don't ships tend to 'slow down' or even try to turn when they get in weapons range on max range orders?
This generally means the chasing ship keeps falling out of max range...

5:
Ships not attacking a satellite.
I can only think of two general things.
Either the ships actually lacked weapons that could target sats.
Or.
Something in the strategy used made the satellite as not a valid target. I know under the Target Type Order and Settings, one of the engage range types is "Do Not Engage", but I do not know why any strategy would even have satellites set to not be engaged at all.

6:
AI has a one tracked mind.
Overall, the AI goes by the book, it follows orders to the letter, period, no exceptions. Such as a Carrier trying to capture a planet launching the fighters it is trying to capture the planet with, because the strategy actually defeats itself when used on certain ships, even thought ot totally defeats the purpose of the Carrier trying to capture a planet in the first place...

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par Dogboy le Ven, 2008-08-01 12:54

I have three questions:

1) I now understand that "capture planet" orders keep all non-troop ships back, to allow the troop ships to go in and drop troops). Is this a special property of the "capture planet" order per se, or is there some setting in that order that I could change if I wanted armed ships to move in and attack planetary defenses while my troop ships move in to drop troops?

2) If I have a task force with "capture planet" orders, will other task forces with other (e.g., "optimal range") orders attack as normal, or will they wait until the troop ships do their thing?

3) Finally, is there a way to reset all the orders to default (since I've mucked around with them trying to figure all this out, and may have messed things up)?

Thanks!

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par Dogboy le Ven, 2008-08-01 13:13

QUOTED (my replies after "DB:"): I see a few possible problems, and other things that are more restrictions or limitations of the game.
(I am far from being an expert, so I could be wrong on some things)

1:
Capture Planet strategy.
It is set by default (in stock anyways) to launch all units in combat. If a ship carries fighters and can launch them, it will do so.
The carrier launched the fighters it was going to invade the planet with.
Simple fix, either use more specialized 'troop transport' that cannot launch fighters, or change the auto-launch value for the Capture Planet strategy to false, or even copy the Capture Planet to make an alternate one for carriers.

DB: Good idea -- thanks. One question: is there something special about the "capture planet" order, or is its behavior (e.g., having all ships hang back while troop ships go in) due to some switch/toggle that I can alter. I'd like a task force of armed ships to move to the planet and take out planetary defenses so that my troop ships don't get shot out of the sky.

2:
No troops.
Heck, no 'troop transports'
Unless I am mistaken, that right there could be a major obstacle in plans to capture a planet.
Sure, you could capture planets without specialized troop transports, but not having troops at all is a major flaw in any plan to capture planets, IMO.
I don't even know if a planet can be successfully captured without troops, even if all enemy ground forces were destroyed in a ground battle using just fighters.

DB: Yes, I was hoping the fighters would do the trick, but they didn't. That may explain why there was no ground combat battle -- maybe it only occurs if there are ground troops?

3:
Ships chasing down an enemy ship and only firing at stuff that is 'in range'.
Once a target is selected, as ship will chase it down until the target is no longer valid, retreats, or either it or itself is destroyed. It will still fire at targets of oppertunity with weapons not occupied with firing at the target.

DB: Thanks. This is too bad, since it would seem to make it a very good strategy to have armed ships defending a planet have "do not get hurt orders", to draw away any warships that are intended to attack enemy fleets then move on the planet, no?

4:
Max Range problem
Don't ships tend to 'slow down' or even try to turn when they get in weapons range on max range orders?
This generally means the chasing ship keeps falling out of max range...

DB: Good point. I'll stop using max range in general.

5:
Ships not attacking a satellite.
I can only think of two general things.
Either the ships actually lacked weapons that could target sats.
Or.
Something in the strategy used made the satellite as not a valid target. I know under the Target Type Order and Settings, one of the engage range types is "Do Not Engage", but I do not know why any strategy would even have satellites set to not be engaged at all.

DB: It's a mystery because my ships had weapons and ammo (or they would have retreated, right, not run up to the enemy and not fired??) and I specifically checked that "satellite" was a valid target. These were default orders ("max range", etc.) I never set anything to "do not engage".

6:
AI has a one tracked mind.
Overall, the AI goes by the book, it follows orders to the letter, period, no exceptions. Such as a Carrier trying to capture a planet launching the fighters it is trying to capture the planet with, because the strategy actually defeats itself when used on certain ships, even thought ot totally defeats the purpose of the Carrier trying to capture a planet in the first place...

DB: Thanks for the cuationary note. I kind of feel like these battles are more like programming assignments than warfare. Maybe the best strategy is to stick with the default battle plans and keep things simple...?

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par BlueTemplar le Ven, 2008-08-01 15:14

IIRC the default strategies were not changed since at least 1.44, and there were many changes in combat mechanics since then.
That's why for instance "Don't Get Hurt" doesn't work if your ship has weapons.
There's a good chance some of the other default strategies are broken too.

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par Gusset le Sam, 2008-08-02 21:27

You mentioned changing the order of targets in the targetting priority lists.

Keep in mind that the actual order of target types means NOTHING unless the combat strategy incorporates "By Target Type" in such a way that it can become part of the AI's target selection.

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par Dogboy le Sam, 2008-08-02 23:08

Thanks, I was not aware of that. I'm not sure I fully understand it either. I see that there is a "targeting priority order" but I'm not sure how that interacts with / differs from "Target type order and settings" (which is below it). One of the choices in "targeting priority order" is "Target type". Does this mean that the ship will fire on ships according to the targeting priority order, from top to bottom, and then if it gets to "target type", it will then prioritize ships according to the Target type order and settings" list? That must be wrong, because if I have "do not engage" listed in Target type order and settings, my ships won't engage, even if I don't have "Target type" listed in targeting priority order.

Is there a simple way of thinking about this, or a tutorial somewhere that spells this out?

Thanks!

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Re: running into lots of bugs in combat engine. Is this typical

Soumis par capnq le Lun, 2008-08-04 10:14

Dogboy wrote:
Maybe the best strategy is to stick with the default battle plans and keep things simple...?
The only time I use the default settings is when I forget to tweak one after the first time I assign it to a ship. (I really ought to start using the save strategies function, rather than rebuilding them in every new game.) I've yet to see a default targeting priority list that I agree with.

-----
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