Research By Percentage SUCKS

Use shift+click to add/remove 10% instead of 1, and try this mod:
http://wiki.spaceempires.net/index.php/Random_Research_Mod

I believe one of the common requests during the SE:IV era was to restore SE:3's way of handling research.

Ironically, undoing the revert is now a common request.

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A project a day keeps the deadline away.

you can simple click on the percentage bar, the left end is 0%, the right one 100% (or just maximum allowed if you allready spend some on another techs)

And this system is ENORMOUSLY better than the SE3 or SE4 ways if you are trying to research something intensely. If you allocate more than enough, the extra points are spent toward the next level of the thing, or dumped back into the pool if that was the last level.

This is very important when you have just opened up a new tech and want/need to get far into it right away. Get to Whizzy New Weapon (Rank 4) right away instead of waiting four turns and having to put off using the tech even longer.

I think one of the best setups would be some sort of fusion between the two systems.

You'd add a technology to the stack, and it defaults to "Finish in .1 years", but you can change it to finish slower, or to finish multiple levels (i.e. Finish X Levels ASAP). That should reduce the time spent clicking, and achieve the vast majority of what people want to do with their tech with less effort, and less mental math.

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A project a day keeps the deadline away.

I think current system is better, but it could use a simply "set to 1 turn completion" button, and clicking that would set enough free research to it so the tech would have time of 1 turn.

Also, you don't have to click through it one percent at a time to figure out your right spot. Start clicking from 0%, at 1.0 years, you need 10 times as much research to complete in 0.1. At 0.5 years you need 5 times as much, at 0.2 you need twice as much. You get the idea.

Doesn't take a math genius and it's a helluva lot faster to just start at 0, see it go to 1.0 at 6%, and just flip it to 60% with the mouse. You can't end up too low, you can always check if you can go 1 or 2 percent lower.

Quite true. setting 1% will give you the number of %points needed for completion in one turn.

The percentage system in III & V is a lot more flexible. Most of the complaints about SEV's version are with the UI.

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"Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyore gloomily. "If it /is/ a good morning," he said. "Which I doubt," said he.

There are several times (mostly in the late game) when even 1% is more than I want to put into something. What I wish you could do was allocate by research points (2000 into that one, 5000 in that one, and 9,600,000 into Stellar Manipulation for levels 31, 32, and 33)

Nazrac:
None of that clicking is actually necessary. As posted above, just set the spending in the area to 1%. If the time til completion is less than 10.0 years, that is the exact percent you need to set to complete it in a single turn. If it says 2.0 years, set to 20%, and it will be done next turn. Granted, a "fill to 1 turn" button would be nice, but you can still use the system efficiently as it is.

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Oh noes! I have to click my mouse button five times! How will I ever recover from the damage that will do to my clicking finger!!!!11!1!1oneone!1

Sheesh.

Reach for the Stars apparently wasted all their development time on ergonomics, and spent no time making a game that was actually worthwhile to play.

I never said the research system wasn't clicky (and alluded to the single button to optimize 1 turn), just that its not quite as horrible as it could be.

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One can also just click "Accumulated Cost" and calculate what percentage of your output is needed.

Over time, I've found I'm getting better at estimating where to click on the bar to get close to the desired percentage.

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"Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyore gloomily. "If it /is/ a good morning," he said. "Which I doubt," said he.

Anytime you do math playing a video game, the Great Phong kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens!

UR DON IT RONG!

BlueTemplar wrote:

Anytime you do math playing a video game, the Great Phong kills a British Grey Squirrel. Please, think of the squirrels!

You realise the "British grey squirrel" is in fact the american grey squirrel and it's the reds that are native

Huh? I think I didn't get it... why squirrels?

YEs I know that. I was refering to the British population.

It's simple really. People have a good reason to kill of the British population of Grey squirrels, namely the fact that they've ousted the Red squirrel from most of the country. the entire point was that doing math is a good thing.

This system is far better once you understand it... first off there is no "wasted" research, so you don't have to tweak it every turn to reduce % if the time to complete is 0.1 turns... and EXCESS points are automatically applied to the next level, so it isn't wasted. If there is NO next level, excess points are divided among all research areas by % allocated to them.

Secondly, as other people have stated, you can allocate by more than 1% at a time (shift click to do 10% a click or click somewhere on the bar to raise it to that level).

Thirdly, it's more realistic to me to have at least 1% research allocated to every field you eventually plan for your empire to use and dump excess percentage in areas you want faster... science doesn't put the rest of the world on hold to research one or two things at a time, usually there's at least ONE small research lab devoted to each project the empire deems "useful" while more are dedicated to areas the empire considers of higher importance (like hull design early on... or gas planet colonization when there's four or five huge ones of your atmosphere with ancient ruins in your starting system ).

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Actually, it isn't a bad idea for a strategy game... it's the way I normally play. Have 1% minimum in every field still leaves me plenty to dedicate to techs I want sooner (not like there's a hundred tech areas available at the beginning). I've examined opponents ships and have noticed while they might outstrip me in 1 or 2 tech areas by a level or 2, overall my empire has far more tech advances and they make a huge difference...

In stock games it's not unusual for me to encounter alien ships with DUCs 2 levels higher than mine and hulls a level higher, but early in games I tend to concentrate on my defense ships using missiles over DUCs, so they seldom get to enjoy their fancy cannons and it is unusual for them to have PD developed to a point to counterbalance my range vs. their close range damage.

Plus, I'll end up getting Applied Research and Applied Intelligence developed faster... and each level of Applied Research upgrades has a profound effect on my research. Doesn't take long before 1% in a field means a level in 0.4-0.5 years. Combined with far more intel to use on sabotage/tech stealing means by mid game I have double the tech areas as the next most advanced race.

The system I use only makes you easy prey in the first year or so of the game... since I normally play with HIGH research cost anyway, most of my opponents can't get a significant jump above me in that time. I normally play large game maps, so even with the max number of opponents (human or computer) I seldom run into one early in the game.

Your math is highly suspect. All you are doing is needlessly delaying the first tech areas to be researched; it still takes the same total number of points (and time) to finish all the techs in the end. It is always better to finish the level in tech A before starting work on tech B. You cannot get tech B any faster if you still finish tech A before it. 100% spending in A followed by 100% spending in B always results in getting B at the same time as any redistribution of points while A is being researched. Reducing spending in tech A will only ever serve to delay finishing tech A, which serves no useful purpose.

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In the long run, my system works better... I've tried both ways. Try it yourself sometime. The example you use is very limited in scope and isn't taking into account the fact that SOME tech areas improve overall research output (Applied Research is a prime example, some Cultural Achievements as well, but in a stock game they are very expensive compared to other areas). Also racial research modifiers are a factor... I generally play high tech cost games because my empire of choice gets a bonus to research and in the long spanning games I play I hate constantly upgrading because my research output becomes ungodly and even expensive techs research rapidly at normal cost. And there is the overall empire increases in research from new facilities being constructed.

Here's an example, I was pushing to get Space Yard components for ships so I could build a space station at some of my worlds that didn't want to waste facility space with a space yard but needed to serve as relay points for interstellar shuttles (mainly population transfers of races that didn't breathe the atmosphere of the planet, but also planetary cargo defenses as the world served to help churn out platforms and troops for newly created colonies and worlds using their queues to build ships). I had a mere 10% dumped into Space Yards and was playing a game with High research costs... from about level 6 to level 10, I was gaining a level in space yards every 0.5 years. This was pretty much a constant with it actually dropping to 0.4 to complete for 9 and 10 because my empire was constantly expanding and new research worlds were being developed. That was with merely 10% in space yards... the other 90% was distributed among every other available field. Granted, I'd have had the component sooner if I'd dumped more research into it, but then I wouldn't have had all the OTHER advances I'd made in that time... hulls, shields, weapons, galactic bonuses to intelligence, improved research facilities, improved resupply, etc, etc...

Let me put it another way... when do YOU usually bother researching Applied Research? Do you wait until you've gotten at least tech 5 in Light Hull? Maybe a few other areas as well? Applied Research and Applied Intelligence are MY two "most important" techs at the beginning of the game... after I get Applied Intel 1, it drops in importance significantly, but Research maintains a priority status until the cost to develop dynamically exceeds the expected return, by then I've likely increased the number of actual facilities I have spread among the colonies by a factor of 10, so even slowing down it comes along nicely... and with that many facilities, even a 50 point increase per level becomes effectively +1 base facility.

Your math-fu is weak, my friend. Think about which turn you want to finish Applied Research. Figure how many turns it will take. Put 0 points into it until T minus X turns. Research only other techs. Once T minus X turns hits, research Applied Research. Bam, you get it finished at the exact same time, without delaying the finishing dates of other techs along the way. Again, there is no possible benefit to splitting up research spending in the way you propose. The only effect is delaying the earlier techs, which is obviously a negative effect.

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Unless you have the random research mod. By the way, where is it? There's nothing here Ed...

I use the 1% thing, but only so i remember what i'm planning on researching next.

My "mathfu" is not weak, I view my system as far more than a simple mathematic equation. Boiling it down to pure mathematics, you are correct, I do not contest that. Tech Area costs are a constant, so all other factors being equal your system is superior. If it takes 100% research per tech area, a person who went all out would get one per turn (so in four turns he'd have four) while a person who went 25% in four areas would get four in four turns an NONE earlier than that. Yes, I agree. And assuming priorities remain the same, investing first in Applied Research would raise your model exponentially, so from a mathematic perspective it is the logical choice.

Yet, there are other benefits of my system you are overlooking:

1) You don't have to fiddle with research every turn - A gripe of the OP to which I offered an alternative.

2) You get the feeling your empire is making steady progress in all areas instead of rapid progress in some while none in others - A sense of realism that better suits my playstyle than min/maxing.

3) It assists in helping set research priorities at a glance - Instead of having to add a percent here and there, I can simply look at the list and debate how to alter spending as need arises.

4) Flexibility - If you have a predefined method of research and stick to it completely, your system is superior BUT mine handles change far better... let's say you encounter an enemy minefield and decide you need mines NOW! Under your system, it likely had 0 research points in it. So you have to invest enough to get it now... using my system I likely had 1% working towards it, so depending on how many turns into the game we are, I'd need to dedicate less of my CURRENT research to get it now compared to you. We both get it on the same turn, I get it with less sacrifice to my original plan.

As to delaying earlier techs being an obviously negative effect... following that logic a person could have an aneurism while deciding whether or not to invest in Applied Research (or Mathematics)... the investment improves overall research, but at the expense of costing precious research points that could have been invested in other techs - short term gain vs long term benefits... rather how I see my system.

As another parallel take the high cost area of Ice Planet Colonization (for non-natives)... sure, if you know exactly what turn you want to have it available, you could use your system and ignore it until T minus x turns then go all out... but in a standard SEV game, you aren't going to know WHEN you'll find a prime ice world (or one with ancient ruins) and you can't simply ignore it and pray to get Ship Capture technology before an alien race starts putting self-destruct devices on all their colony ships... or hope to trade for it through an alliance. In instances like these, I feel sacrificing 1-2% from other research is WORTH the small delay in time I get the tech area. And other planet colonization falls under the previous paragraph... it has a huge cost that delays other research, but the end benefit is more worlds you can slap Research Centers on, thus improving overall research.

Mathematically, with a preset plan of research you stick to like it was engraved in stone, I concede you have the better system... but research is so much more than simple mathematics... and few plans survive first contact with the enemy... so in the long run, in the variable SEV universe, I still contend my system is better.

I must agree with Fyron. Your math-fu is indeed weak. Your system is no more, and no less, flexible than what Fyron or others have suggested. Using either your colonization or minefield example, both your system and Fyron's will get you the desired technology in the same amount of time. In that, they are equal. But what you claim to be your system's great strength is actually it's most glaring weakness. You claim that your strategy allows you to research an unexpectedly required technology with less of a detriment to other research. The thing is, under what I shall now dub the Fyronian system, the hit to other research lasts a mere few turns. Under your system, which I shall not dignify with a name the hit to other research lasts the course of the entire game. You are, perhaps, familiar with the concept of "Death by a thousand cuts"? If you looked up that term in a dictionary, you wouldn't see a picture of your strategy, because grown up dictionaries don't have pictures and most don't contain colloquialisms, but if they did, you would.

I have tried both systems, and against any halfways decent opposition, the Fyronian system is vastly superior. And no, stock AI does not count as halfways decent opposition. Claiming a strategy is viable because it works against stock AI is like beating a deaf, mute, quadraplegic to death with a pillow case stuffed with feathers, and then claiming your new combat system is superior to kung-fu.

No, with less of a detriment to my ORIGINAL plan, not other research in general. If the area in question would require the "Fyronian" system about 5 turns to research from 0, depending on how much progress I have slowly made towards in during that time, stopping some tertiary projects that were running at 1% each is merely a slight setback for those projects (and may not require even 5 turns worth of delay), while the Fyronian system has to put all it's projects on hold for 5 turns.

That again goes back to exactly how long it would take to research... some projects will delay more than "a mere few turns"...

You and Fyron both seem to be overestimating the impact of my system... I'm not talking about having no more 10% research in an area... merely making sure all projects have 1%... the impact would be akin to scrapping one research facility at the start of the game. It creates a delay to research at the beginning of the game, but in the long run is a minor impact.

Never claimed stock AI, claimed stock game. Big difference. Most computer AI is easily predictable and quite little challenge... (some players are as well). I play my system against any opponent I face (usually just local friends, and they do beat me occasionally, but that's what makes it fun, playing opponents who CANNOT beat me would be about the same as constantly playing stock AI). As for people outside my local friends, unfortunately I've met very few good ones. Most don't like the slow paced games I play and are more set towards RTS mindsets (quick research/buildup and zerg - leaving colonies lightly defended - attempting to brute force opposition early).

While it might have been intended for "tongue-in-cheek" value... resorting to being demeaning or insulting doesn't exactly make your position appealing...