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Accueil » news » forums » Support & Feedback » Scenarios & Mods » SE:V MODs

2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Image de Artemis Knight
Soumis par Artemis Knight le Sam, 2008-02-16 18:35 SE:V MODs

I'm about to get into moding the armor components, and I'm curious exactly how does the armor system work?

1 a) If I add a new component say: nanite infused armor with the ability to repair its self (ala organic armor) and I put one component of it on my ship will it repair ALL the armor I put on there or just that one piece?

1 b) If not, is it possible to get a component to layer over all? For example I want to add chummle armor that reduces the effects of missle weapons and I want it to act as an addon to the armor components present, can this be coded?

2 I've added external ordinance missles to my components, to limit the number one can use I made the placeable only in the armor slot, are there any special considerations I have to take into account?

3 This is really just an opinion thing, naming my Mod
chocies thus far:

A. Callous Cosmos
B. The Stars Ablaze
C. Scorched Space
D. Celestial Inferno

‹ Dark Nova 5.04 Balance Mod v1.13 Available! ›
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Mod Designer

Re: 2 armor questions

Soumis par Fyron le Dim, 2008-02-17 02:23

1a) The organic repair ability only repairs components with said ability. It is not actually tied to armor components.

1b) Armor is damaged in the order you place it on the ship design. You can add special damage types for missiles and set the armor types to reduce damage accordingly.

2) Don't rely on slots for limits; all shipsets have different numbers of them. Instead, add a requirement to the weapon component that limits the amount you can place on a ship. Look at the engine requirement in VehicleSizes.txt to see how it is done. If you want a percentage based formula instead of a flat number, for a more scalable approach, look up the cargo requirement on Transports (or fighter bays on carriers).


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Re: 2 armor questions

Soumis par Brad le Dim, 2008-02-17 04:57

1b) Could you make some sort of mount for armour in componentenhancements.txt?

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Re: 2 armor questions

Soumis par AndreyKl le Dim, 2008-02-17 05:51

1b) you can try changing DamageTypes.txt, create demage type for missiles, which will make less damage to your "chummle armor".

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Image de Artemis Knight

Re: 2 armor questions

Soumis par Artemis Knight le Dim, 2008-02-17 06:09

Quote:
Armor is damaged in the order you place it on the ship design

Ok maybe it's just because It's 5 in the morning and I just got home from work (been a LOOONG day), but..... HUH!?!? Could you expand upon that?

Quote:
Don't rely on slots for limits; all shipsets have different numbers of them. Instead, add a requirement to the weapon component that limits the amount you can place on a ship. Look at the engine requirement in VehicleSizes.txt to see how it is done. If you want a percentage based formula instead of a flat number, for a more scalable approach, look up the cargo requirement on Transports

I'm familiar with the Get Design Ability field, already used it to limit the amount of Gravity Generators per ship as well as the number of Combat Hardware components. The problem with that is choosing an ability to limit. For engines Kwok used "movement standard" no problem (That's actually what I used to figure this out), for the Gravity Generators I used supply generation (had to nix the quantum reactor from my mod but oh well) and for combat hardware I used "master computer". Trying that with missles though the only ability they use is "Ordinance Storage", and that's not something I want to limit for obvious reasons. If I was to choose another ability that means I'll be limiting something else as well. I tried early on to create my own abilities but that caused an error loading the files because the game wouldn't recognize them. So using the armor slots seemed like a viable alternative. The fact that different ship designs have differing amount of slots doesn't seem like a problem too me, just shows a racial preferance for having more (or less) hard points on which to mount external missles. If you know how I can get the game to recognize additional abilites this would be a great option but as it stand's now looks like I'm stuck with armor slots.... unless there's something else I'm overlooking.... Is there?

Quote:
1b) you can try changing DamageTypes.txt, create demage type for missiles, which will make less damage to your "chummle armor".

I've checked that file out too, added "plasma" damage and "Force Beam" (although now when you mention it maybe I should add another for missles and warheads.....perhaps call it explosive) but when I make my chummel armor will a ship need just one component and that covers the whole ship or just that component? And if it's the whole ship would putting two chummel components stack then?

"Trying to teach me to be politically correct is like trying to teach a dead dog to play fetch.... futile."

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Image de Captain Kwok
Mod Designer

Re: 2 armor questions

Soumis par Captain Kwok le Dim, 2008-02-17 10:21

Armor is damaged in the order it's placed on the design. So if you put an emissive armor first and then add a regular armor, the emissive armor will be damaged before the regular armor.


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Image de Artemis Knight

Re: 2 armor questions

Soumis par Artemis Knight le Dim, 2008-02-17 13:11

Ok after some sleep and some caffine that makes sense. But it brings up another question. Does emissive armor and the energy refractor stack? If I have 2 emissive armor components will damage be reduced by 8+(lvl*2) and would 2 energy refractors reduce beam weapons by 20+(lvl*2)?

BTW: Thanks for the help guys.

"Trying to teach me to be politically correct is like trying to teach a dead dog to play fetch.... futile."

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Mod Designer

Re: 2 armor questions

Soumis par Fyron le Dim, 2008-02-17 14:01

Artemis Knight wrote:
I'm familiar with the Get Design Ability field, already used it to limit the amount of Gravity Generators per ship as well as the number of Combat Hardware components. The problem with that is choosing an ability to limit.
If you look in the modding doc, you will find that there are equivalent functions for returning the amount of components by name, rather than ability.

Quote:
The fact that different ship designs have differing amount of slots doesn't seem like a problem too me...
It is by far one of the the most retarded things Aaron has done in SE5... Having slot layouts defined in shipsets destroys any possibility of modder's using them for balancing purposes, since any custom shipset can easily define its slot layout to abuse the limits. Its trivial for a shipset to have, say, 40 armor slots. No longer a limit for a player using that set. It doesn't even have to be done intentionally by the shipset author, either.

Game mechanics/physics should be defined by the mod, never by shipsets. Any sort of per-race balance of slot layouts should be handled via racial traits, specified hulls for each race type, and customized slot layouts for each race type in the slot override file.

Artemis Knight wrote:
But it brings up another question. Does emissive armor and the energy refractor stack? If I have 2 emissive armor components will damage be reduced by 8+(lvl*2) and would 2 energy refractors reduce beam weapons by 20+(lvl*2)?
Emissive armor acts only when the component itself is hit. Multiple components will come into effect if the hit does enough damage to destroy the first EA entirely. The EA ability of the second armor will then apply to the damage.

I'm not positive, but I would assume that the "Weapon Delivery Type Damage Received Modifier Percent" ability used by the Energy Refractor functions in the same way.


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Image de Artemis Knight

Wow this is getting more complex than I thought.

Soumis par Artemis Knight le Dim, 2008-02-17 14:57

Alright I see what you mean by using the armor slots as a limiting factor, very easily abused especially by modified shipsets. But there's still a problem with using Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count, I've got

External Missile CE
External Missile Fission
External Missile Fusion
External Missile AM
External Missile AAM
External GD Missile Fission
External GD Missile Fusion
External GD Missile AM
External GD Missile AAM
External SMM
External ABAMM

And that's just so far. Now if I used the (get design) or (get design) not only would that be incredibly tedious it could still be abused. Say the limit I set for a frigate is 9 external missiles. So I put 8 external AAMs, and then 9 external AM. If I could get the game to recognize just the external part of the name that would work but I don't think this is possible. Or am I wrong.....

Quote:
Emissive armor acts only when the component itself is hit. Multiple components will come into effect if the hit does enough damage to destroy the first EA entirely. The EA ability of the second armor will then apply to the damage.

I'm not positive, but I would assume that the "Weapon Delivery Type Damage Received Modifier Percent" ability used by the Energy Refractor functions in the same way

Sweet that helps alot. But it brings up another question then This might get bit long....
Say I want this to be true: Destroyers have either Composite Armor or Energy Refractive Armor not both. Would this be the code I'd use?

Requirement 7 Formula := iff ((Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Composite Armor") >= 1), (Get_Design_Specific_Componet_Count ("Energy Refractive Armor") or ((Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Energy Refractive Armor") >= 1), (Get_Design_Specific_Componet_Count ("Composite Armor")

"Trying to teach me to Mod is like trying to teach a dead dog to play fetch.... futile."

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Mod Designer

Re: Wow this is getting more complex than I thought.

Soumis par Fyron le Dim, 2008-02-17 17:37

That may or may not work, but it's a logical mess. I don't want to even try parsing it. Smiling

Consider that A is the statement:

Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Composite Armor") >= 1

and B is the statement:

Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Energy Refractive Armor") >= 1

It follows that !A (not A) is thus:

Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Composite Armor") < 1

and !B (not B) is thus:

Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Energy Refractive Armor") < 1

Consider for a moment that TRUE = 1, and FALSE = 0.

We can construct the following truth table:

A   B   Output
0   0   1
0   1   1
1   0   1
1   1   0

For reference, the first line means that when A and B both equal 0, our result is 1. In terms of tech reqs, this means if we have neither any Composite Armor nor any Refractive Armor, the requirement is satisfied. It only fails to be satisfied when A = B = 1, or when we have both. Now back to the logic:

This truth table represents a fairly simplistic boolean function:

A NAND B

NAND is literally the inversion of AND; it returns 0 when both values are 1, 1 otherwise.

Unfortunately, we do not have a NAND operator, so we must express things in terms of OR, AND and NOT. Since NAND is the inversion of AND, this is simply:

!(A AND B)

And in SE5 function speak:

NOT ( Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Composite Armor") >= 1 AND 
Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Energy Refractive Armor") >= 1 )


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Image de Artemis Knight

WooHoo!

Soumis par Artemis Knight le Dim, 2008-02-17 19:40

Fyron wrote:

NOT ( Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Composite Armor") >= 1 AND 
Get_Design_Specific_Component_Count ("Energy Refractive Armor") >= 1 )


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At first the game didn't want to parse it and I despaired.... But with perseverence I figured out the problem (a couple of extra spaces Sticking out tongue ) Thanks much Fyron!

As to the exteral missiles with this new found imformation I COULD go through and limit them that way, but it's just WAY too tedious. I'll count on the slow reload rate and limited ordanance storage of the components to keep people from abusing them.

Thanks guys especially Fyron! Just a few more things and I should be ready for a beta release (no AI yet but hey I'll tackle that when the time comes).

"Trying to teach me to be politically correct is like trying to teach a dead dog to play fetch.... futile."

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Mod Designer

Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Fyron le Lun, 2008-02-18 00:17

How is it tedious? You just have to add one ability and one requirement to each type of external mount missile (apparently there is no Get_Design_Specific_Component_Percentage_Of_Hull_Space function).

Ability:

Number Of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := AI Tag 01
Ability 1 Description :=
Ability 1 Scope := Space Object
Ability 1 Range Formula := 0
Ability 1 Amount 1 Formula := 0
Ability 1 Amount 2 Formula := 0 

Requirement:

Requirement X Description                       := One cannot use more than 25% of the hull to mount external missiles.
Requirement X Formula                           := Get_Design_Ability_Percentage_Of_Hull_Space("AI Tag 01", "") <= 25


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Image de Artemis Knight

Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Artemis Knight le Lun, 2008-02-18 02:56

Oh, I was unaware that the AI tagcould be used in components, I thought it was for the AI scripts. Either way that lil change is going to have to wait for the next version. I'm ready to release the beta as soon as I find a host site.

"Trying to teach me to be politically correct is like trying to teach a dead dog to play fetch.... futile."

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Mod Designer

Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Fyron le Lun, 2008-02-18 03:30

SEnet is happy to host your mod. You can use the downloads submission form to submit it to the database. If you don't have anywhere to post it online temporarily, you can email it to me at admin at spaceempires dot net, and type in random gibberish for the URL field in the form. Smiling

AI Tags are an ability like any other; they just happen to have literally no functional role. You can even assign them values to create a complex power plant requirement scheme. Eye-wink


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Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Juju le Lun, 2008-02-18 03:58

Is it in some way possible to change the order components take damage ?

I think it would be nice to spread the damage taken evenly on all components involved
from outside to inside
shield -> armor -> outer hull -> inner hull

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Image de Artemis Knight

Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Artemis Knight le Lun, 2008-02-18 04:38

Yes it can be done, It's in the damage types data file. If you see a mod that says it has a leakey armor system, they've done what your talking about. As I'm only a lonely suplicant to the modding sensei's myself you'd probably want someone else to give you the details. (I've messed around with that file but not a whole lot).

"Trying to teach me to be politically correct is like trying to teach a dead dog to play fetch.... futile."

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Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Juju le Lun, 2008-02-18 04:48

I read about leaky to, but thats not what I meant,

I meant the damage order explained earlier in this thread, that components beeing damaged in the same order they were placed on the ship

I wanted to know if there is any way to change this Smiling

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Image de Artemis Knight

Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Artemis Knight le Lun, 2008-02-18 05:00

AHHH Well, As I understand it the game will always take shields then armor then Outer then inner, unless you have a damage type that skips armor and/or shields. But I know you can switch between different types of armor and shields, That's in the Shield and Armor levels file. If I've learned my lessons this should be an accurate example.

Number Of Shield Levels := 4 Shield Level 1 Name := Normal Shields Shield Level 2 Name := Phased Shields Shield Level 3 Name := Null-Space Shields Shield Level 4 Name := Plasma Shields

So Normal shield get damaged first, then Phased then Null-space. So let's say I want to add a new type Temporal Shields.

Number Of Shield Levels := 5 Shield Level 1 Name := Normal Shields Shield Level 2 Name := Phased Shields Shield Level 3 Name := Null-Space Shields Shield Level 4 Name := Temporal Shields Shield Level 5 Name := Plasma Shields

Now before my temporal shields get damaged they have to go through any Null-Space Shields I might have.

Hope this helps.

"Trying to teach me to be politically correct is like trying to teach a dead dog to play fetch.... futile."

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Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Juju le Lun, 2008-02-18 05:19

Not at all Smiling

What I wanted to know, and if I understood previous post correctly, is

the current system of damage application works like this
if I place i.e. three armor components on a ship c1,c2,c3 and my ship takes 50 damage
then c1 will take 50 damage and c2 and c3 are not scratched at all.
when more damage is applied c1 will eventually get destroyed and c2 gets damaged .. and so on ..

what I like to know is if this can be changed ( if it is the way it works at all Smiling )

so that .. firt shield goes down ... its treated as one entity allready,
then all armor is damaged evenly, then outer and inner components. ( i know i ignore skipping abilities )

applied to the example it means my ship takes 60 damage which is spread out on
c1,c2,c3 each take 20 damage ( 60 is just easier divided than 50 ^^ )
until all armor is destroyed

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Image de Captain Kwok
Mod Designer

Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Captain Kwok le Lun, 2008-02-18 10:14

Note that the ShieldAndArmorLevels.txt file has no effect at this time. All mixed shield types are treated as normal points and armor is damaged in the order it's placed. I've mentioned to MM several times that damage should follow the order of components as laid out in the ShieldAndArmorLevels.txt file, but no fix yet.


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Re: 2 armor questions (That got answered! Thanks much)

Soumis par Juju le Lun, 2008-02-18 10:21

So the answer to my initial question is : if not hardcoded, then no.

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