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Accueil » news » forums » Space Empires V » Space Empires V General

Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Image de obliwobly
Soumis par obliwobly le Sam, 2007-12-01 15:37 Space Empires V General

Why is it that planets are only maximally exploitable if you get rid of all species not able to breath the atmosphere? This doesnt seem right to me. Surely that is the wrong logic, and it also forces laborious population movement, because in order to boost planets already colonised with your start race you have to move all the colonists off, or worse.... scrap them !!!

I hope I don't need to remind you that this is immoral.

But besides that it doesn't make sense because if you have any amount of the appropriate atmosphere breathing species as population then they can exploit all the planet. Having non breathers present among them will not inhibit them so why doesnt this condition allow the bonus? All you should need to do is drop a seed population on the planet, or even have them migrate as they do in the BM game I am playing and that should be enough to gain the X5 facillity space bonus without having to "get rid of" the encumbent population of non-breathers.

I know this is how it has always been done with previous SE versions but that doesnt seem like a reason to keep it this way.

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par General Mengsk le Sam, 2007-12-01 15:42

Your population is a conglomeration of your subjects. They should follow your orders regardless, even if that order is scrapping. Otherwise, they jeopardize the empire, and should probably be executed anyway!

To your second point, think about it for a moment. You have a colony of 400 million Hydrogen breathers and 100 million Oxygen breathers on a Hydrogen planet. If there wasn't a dome, the Hydrogen breathers would be going around your city doing all their important construction, and would make fun of the poor 100 million Oxygen breathers gasping for air.

That's not nice.

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par obliwobly le Sam, 2007-12-01 15:55

Well that seems a little callous even for you Arcturus! How can you compare the mild irritation of being made fun of by feral hydrogen breathers to the monstrous fate of being scrapped .... for organics (and not very much organics at that)!

To quote Wendolene on the fate of sheep captured by her fathers cyberdog Preston, its evil.

A dome doesnt stop the hydrogen breathers going outside, does it ?

(Which was the very fallacy I preemptively debunked in my first post Sticking out tongue .)

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par General Mengsk le Sam, 2007-12-01 16:57

First of all, I kind of assumed you would get that the oxygen breathers gasping for air would die. The hydrogen breathers making fun of the oxygen breathers was just an added side issue.

But anyway, to your issue that hydrogen breathers can go outside, there's two problems with that.

First of all, remember that the domed colony is creating the maximum amount of space available for construction in spite of the dome. The dome doesn't just pick an island in a giant planet and stay there. It's trying to encompass the entire planet. That requires a huge amount of space in itself just to keep the diverse atmosphere supplies going for everyone. So there's not enough room for the people who can breathe to go outside.

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par obliwobly le Dim, 2007-12-02 03:40

Or higher maintenance costs Wade, for dome upkeep.

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par Lastdreamer le Dim, 2007-12-02 04:40

Maybe with 3 different level... Domed, Smi-Domed and Undomed planet. The fisrt where no one can breathe the atmosphere, the second where not all the people can breathe the atmosphere and the third where all can breathe. So, to make an example:

Huge Planet domed: 5.000 kt for facilities,
Huge Planet Semi-domed: 15.000
Huge Planet Undomed: 25.000

BUT

for make this change, the game should control and compute for all race in a planet, also making multi abilities for different people avalaible. To make an example:

if you race has +20% build rate, and the new race coming on your planet has instead +5% mining ability, you can have both ability on that planet... maybe at a percent value... you race is 80% of the entire planet population, you can construct at +20%*80%=+16% rate, and you gather minerals on that planet at +5%*20%=+1%.

So it will be more interesting, more population oriented, but also more complex... and it will be interesting if you can choose which population will be your crew in each ship/base/fighters... but, it will be MORE about micromanagement, and governig a very large empire will be nearly impossible...

And at least, I think that this sort of thing will not be implemented in SEV, but it's only my idea.

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par Wade le Dim, 2007-12-02 05:55

The Breathers of course will be outside. The non-breathers will be inside. That should be obvious. The planet is a maze of domes and tunnels. Cities inside domes and cities outside domes.

I, also, feel that the "domed" planet rule should be changed though. Before, I've stated this in the wish list thread:

-do away with limitations on amount of facilities. Only have the non-breathers of a planet domed incurring a penalty to production, research, etc. Still keep the term "Domed" for the games tradition sake: example: Thus it could read: "10% Domed incurring a 5% penalty to all types of planetary production." This means that any Domed population would work at 50% capacity while the Undomed Breathers work at 100%.
The non-breathers left on a planet will have a higher emigration rate to a breathable planet.

-Wade

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par Wade le Dim, 2007-12-02 06:12

@ Lastdreamer: aquired population take on your race/empire traits and lose their own aside from the Breathing.

The three different levels still leaves this problem: A huge planet with 100M Breathers gets suddenly entirely domed because only 1M Non-Breathers are added.

Obliwobly's comment of just a higher maintenance cost for mixed Breathers planets is interesting.

-an increasingly higher maintenance cost of facilities for the amount of Non-Breathers on a planet. Perhaps a 1% higher cost for every 100M Non-Breathers. That would figure well. No limitation on amount of facilities or Breather/Non-Breather percentages to think about.

-Wade

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par Psieye le Dim, 2007-12-02 08:06

This is merely a question of how you write the PlanetSizes.txt - if you really don't like the idea of Domes taking up that much space, just edit that file so domed planets still give you almost as much population and/or facility and/or cargo space as undomed planets.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go to this Wiki if interested. No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par obliwobly le Dim, 2007-12-02 08:49

That is not really the same thing Psieye, its not the domes that are the problem, its when they apply. The 5x facillity bonus is a nice incentive, its just the logic. Not getting the bonus with mixed species is not logical... captain!

If you did what you suggest, and anyone can, you lose the strategic play of planet atmosphere type, which is fundamental to SE & also you would lose race capture / migration treaty game elements IMHO. To the best of my limited knowledge the conditions for the decision re: domed or undomed is not moddable via the text files and is an engine thing.

It would be better to have it moddable so people can choose to play their way, with conditions for facillity bonus seperate to conditions for undomed status.

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par Psieye le Dim, 2007-12-02 10:12

obliwobly wrote:
That is not really the same thing Psieye, its not the domes that are the problem, its when they apply. The 5x facillity bonus is a nice incentive, its just the logic. Not getting the bonus with mixed species is not logical... captain!

If you did what you suggest, and anyone can, you lose the strategic play of planet atmosphere type, which is fundamental to SE & also you would lose race capture / migration treaty game elements IMHO. To the best of my limited knowledge the conditions for the decision re: domed or undomed is not moddable via the text files and is an engine thing.

It would be better to have it moddable so people can choose to play their way, with conditions for facillity bonus seperate to conditions for undomed status.

Very well, we are looking at this differently. Though I should add: just because you get more facility space doesn't mean you lose strategic value of race capture/migration to get breathers on your domed planets. Say you mod it such that you have 80% facility space but the same 25% population space (or reduce it to 10%). You then go and edit Settings.txt so that the population bonuses get significant at large populations. This now means you can have an early domed colony developed properly, but all you're doing is preparing it to be big once you get some breathers on there and breed them.

Of course, this point doesn't touch your problem. This is solely to reinforce my own point - we have different objectives/views in the first place.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go to this Wiki if interested. No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par Alpedar le Dim, 2007-12-02 11:09

Some facilities works regardless population (storage, cargo, supply, atmosphere modifier, value&climate plants, bonus providers). Allowing to build more facilities would mean that these facilities would be build there (where normaly you are lucky to have one supply depot there).

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par obliwobly le Dim, 2007-12-02 11:57

Interesting idea Psieye, especially the productivity multiplier, which would make a telling difference between established and new colonies and might add a dimension to the game. I dont want to be distracted from the thread topic and as there can only be so many mods thats one for Cpt Kwok to think about IMHO He has been tinkering with population a bit. But I wonder if we (players) can mod a setting for that into game setup parameters? (ie is it feasable?)

Anyway as you rightly say it still leaves the original problem unsolved which is how to trigger the larger max population bonus, which is presumably tied to undomed status as things stand, which is Aarons end at MM. You would currently have to "remove" all the existing non breather population one way or another, to get undomed status, which is the sticking point, and intended topic of the thread!

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par Psieye le Dim, 2007-12-02 12:08

obliwobly wrote:
But I wonder if we (players) can mod a setting for that into game setup parameters? (ie is it feasable?)
It's 5 minutes' work for anyone to do that (plus 5 more minutes to find exactly what data files and which lines need changing for a first-time data file editor). Well, assuming you don't mind the AI not realising this change.

But very well, you want to stay on topic. I'll fold here.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go to this Wiki if interested. No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE

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Mod Designer

Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par Fyron le Dim, 2007-12-02 14:16

obliwobly wrote:
..as there can only be so many mods..
There can be as many mods as people want to make...


SpaceEmpires.net | Space Empires Wiki

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Re: Mixed species planets & facillity bonus

Soumis par Wade le Dim, 2007-12-02 16:00

Okay, so this is what I added to the Wish List and emaild to :
-----

-Do away with limitations on amount of facilities.
*Just an increasingly higher maintenance cost of facilities for the amount of Non-Breathers on a planet. Perhaps 1% higher cost for every 100M Non-Breathers. That would figure well. Keep the term "Domed" for the games tradition sake. No limitation on amount of facilities or Breather/Non-Breather percentages to think about.
The non-breathers left on a planet will have a higher emigration rate to a breathable planet

This problem would be gone: A huge planet with 100M Breathers gets suddenly entirely domed because only 1M Non-Breathers are added.

Mostly, of course, the Breathers are outside and the non-breathers are inside. That should be obvious. The planet is a maze of domes and tunnels. Cities inside domes and cities outside domes. There are special adjustments made for Non-Breathers in Breather air such as: small domed areas, buildings, and rooms; repirators and portable air tanks; sealed/"domed" vehicles; etcetera. All of this accounts for the higher maintenace cost.

-Wade

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