Confused about Intelligence activities

im not a player of bm yet however i know kwok the creator of bm is on vacation till the end of july, but its a highly downloaded mod so some1 else should be able to help you b4 then=)

Well, the BM recently had a "leaky intel" system implemented. Basically a formula is applied to determine the odds for success. The formula is on this forum somewhere (see threads on the SE5 Mods area), and includes the cost of the project, attacking intel points, and defensive intel points.

My personal experience leads me to believe that the formula needs a little tweaking. I am currently in a PBW game with another player, and for the past 40 turns I have had more than double the defensive intel points as my opponent has offensive. His spies are having a field day...it seems that the only way for me to have a real chance of preventing 75% of his projects is to have about 6x the number of points invested.

So, I know how you feel...

The "easy" response is to go after him with intel activities, I suppose. I guess I just have a handicap there, though, as I'm not partial to espionage as a weapon. I'll eventually get over it, I suppose.

Hi,

Is it possible your opponent has a racial trait giving him, say, 15% - 20% boost in intel?

Still, I suppose it doesn't really explain the need for 6x the points to counter that.

davor.

I started a test game against the AI recently (BM1.08), and sure enough a couple of turns after we met, he had between 8-10 successful epsionage attempts against me per turn. He had around 2,000 intel points working against me and I had about 10,000 points for defense! How's it possible he can get even one through when he only got 2,000 points, don't epsionage projects cost more intel points than this in the first place?!

Very unbalanced as far as I'm concerned, making intel way to powerful.

I didn't play on further but I'm guessing that sabotage events would get through in this way too so who needs to bother researching towards more powerful ships when you can just cripple an empire with Intel this easily.

i think kwok made espionage easier than sabotage IIRC, so sabotage events will be less likely to get through than the corresponding espionage. that is he made espionage projects cheap and sabotage expensive so far fewer sabotage projects can be started. can't remember how the formula for deciding which ones get through works however.

Hey

I finished updating and testing a different intel system. It changes many of the things currently used in stock. I have tested it and it works fine. If you want to try it; please go ahead. I would love to hear comments.

The changes:

1) Increased the costs for all intelligence activites. Sabotage costs are 2x as much as espionage base costs. I also regrouped some so that many more possible responses can occur. So Sabtoage empire wide or planes and colonies both share roits and plauges. I am still trying to rebalance the costs; so opinions are welcome.

2) The old system limited number of hits (blocked or not) to the # of attack types * 2. I canged this to 30 b/c I beleive intel activites should be limited by intel points and not different attack types. The max possible attacks are 150-200 attacks per turn. Trust me that is more than plenty.

3) The old system each consective attacks costed the same. That is no longer the case. I believe each repeated attack should be harder than the previous. SO Every consecutive attack after the 1st 5 increases its cost by 100% for 10 attack cycles. So cycles 1-5; cost 100%; cycles 5-14; cost 200%; cycles 15-25; cost 300% and so on.

4) The old sustem had defense always had an advantage of 2:1 with respect to attack costs. So 10000 pts attack was 100% defended by 5000 pts defensive intel spending. I believe that intial low amount of intel defense is better than none what so ever. So I have defense costs a variable cost inaddition to variable attack costs. defenses start needing 1:1 ratio untill cycle 6. At cycle # 6 the ratio changes to 2:1. This means intially each attack will need the same amount of defense pts to be defended; eventualy the ratio changes to 2:1.

The new costs:

    AI_MAIN_INTEL_SABOTAGE_SHIPS_&_FLEETS:
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_DAMAGE)
      call cost_list.add(2000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_LOSE_MOVEMENT)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_LOSE_SUPPLIES)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_REBELS)
      call cost_list.add(5000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_EXPERIENCE_CHANGE)
      call cost_list.add(3000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_CARGO_DAMAGE)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_ORDERS_CHANGE)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      set intel_type := 1
    AI_MAIN_INTEL_SABOTAGE_PLANETS_&_COLONIES:
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_CONDITIONS_CHANGE)
      call cost_list.add(3000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_VALUE_CHANGE)
      call cost_list.add(4000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_CHANGE)
      call cost_list.add(3000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_HAPPINESS_CHANGE)
      call cost_list.add(3000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_RIOT)
      call cost_list.add(5000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_REBEL)
      call cost_list.add(8000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_CARGO_DAMAGE)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_PLAGUE_CREATED)
      call cost_list.add(6000)
      set intel_type := 1
    AI_MAIN_INTEL_SABOTAGE_EMPIRE_WIDE:
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_RIOT)
      call cost_list.add(5000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_PLAGUE_CREATED)
      call cost_list.add(6000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POINTS_CHANGE)
      call cost_list.add(2000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POINTS_STEAL)
      call cost_list.add(4000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_RESEARCH_STEAL)
      call cost_list.add(5000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_RESEARCH_PROJECT_DELETE)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_INTEL_PROJECT_DELETE)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      set intel_type := 1
    AI_MAIN_INTEL_SABOTAGE_POLITICAL:
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_DISRUPT_TRADE)
      call cost_list.add(3000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_PREVENT_MESSAGES)
      call cost_list.add(2000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_INTERCEPT_MESSAGE)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      set intel_type := 1
    AI_MAIN_INTEL_ESPIONAGE_SHIPS_&_FLEETS:
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_CONCENTRATIONS)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_CONSTRUCTION_INFORMATION)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_DESIGNS_STEAL)
      call cost_list.add(2000)
      set intel_type := 2
    AI_MAIN_INTEL_ESPIONAGE_PLANETS_&_COLONIES:
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_INFORMATION)
      call cost_list.add(2000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_LOCATIONS)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_CARGO_DAMAGE)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      set intel_type := 2
    AI_MAIN_INTEL_ESPIONAGE_EMPIRE_WIDE:
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_SYSTEM_INFORMATION)
      call cost_list.add(3000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_INFORMATION)
      call cost_list.add(4000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_UNIT_DESIGNS_INFORMATION)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_TECH_REPORTS)
      call cost_list.add(3000)
      set intel_type := 2
    AI_MAIN_INTEL_ESPIONAGE_POLITICAL:
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_INTERCEPT_MESSAGE)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_TREATY_INFORMATION)
      call cost_list.add(1000)
      call pick_list.add(INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_PREVENT_MESSAGES)
      call cost_list.add(2000)
      set intel_type := 2

To install: Download and save in the data\ in SEV folder, Make sure you back up the old script file just in case. You can download it from:
http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=357014

Does the additionnal intel points for an AI with a bonus show in the intel screen? It seems to be that way since the cheapest projects cost 1k - so if you played agains an AI with a bonus modifier of x10, it's normal that his 20k points were enough to break through your 10k with 8-10 sucessful projects per turn!

The AI can have a bonus modifier of x10? In other words 1,000% to intel? Is that the "High" level of bonus? Does their research get a 10x bonus as well?

In BM 1.08 settings.txt:

Computer Player Bonus Points Multiplier Low                           := 2.0
Computer Player Bonus Points Multiplier Medium                        := 3.0
Computer Player Bonus Points Multiplier High                          := 5.0
//---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Player Bonus Queue Rate Multiplier Low                       := 1.5
Computer Player Bonus Queue Rate Multiplier Medium                    := 2.0
Computer Player Bonus Queue Rate Multiplier High                      := 3.0

"Points" means Mins, Rads, Orgs, Intel and Research. I don't think anything else is affected.

It should be noted that "leakiness" in BM cuts both ways. There's no guaranteed success or guaranteed failure - just higher and lower chances. So no amount of defense will stop enemy intel cold, and no amount of offense will grant automatic success.

I like it so far. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I'd have a hard time improving it. Except of course for the large empire penalty everyone wants but can't have.

I think the best approach is to always mix offense and defense, and not try to go purely one way or the other. I'd say pure offense > pure defense if you must choose one. But that opinion may change when I have more experience.

The next update to the Balance Mod (v1.09) has a number of specific intel adjustments to the system. The main changes were to costs (to reduce the number of projects per turn being executed) and to emphasize the defending empire's points in the success rate formula.

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