Starbase Based Stargates?? |
THIS IS GOING TO BE LONG. Sorry! 
I have a feeling this might go against the SE history; but please hear me out.
If any of you ever played some of the earliest space empire type games; Stars! has to be on top of the list. If any of you need some remebering plz see
http://www.starsfaq.com/index.htm
One of favorite things about stars were stargates which gives the ability to move your entire fleet very quickly around the galaxy in a single turn. My favorite race as a result was the Interstelar Traveler(IT); as they were the only race that had access to ultimate Gates ( unlmitied mass/ Unlimited Distnce).
For those who never played Stars! and heard of their Stargates set up let me explain the makeup. Each Planet can build a Starbase or regular spacebases as SEV. Those bases served many functions like building/repairing ships and most importantly defending that planet. In that starbase Hull; there is normally one slot available to "Stargates". Stargates were very expensive components that cost in most cases more than 1/2 cost of entire starbase if loaded with weapons. So empires will never have one in every starbase. The system was to use stargates; 2 starbases on different planets (preferably far away) with stargates would link up. "Link up" meant that each stargate can have one distanation(another stargate) per turn but the other gate can target different distanation. then any ship that instructed to travel using gate moves through it at the end of that turn.
To balance this; Stars! had 2 limits on stargates: ship mass (Hull mass) & distance between gates. The mass limites were per ship and not per fleet. Gates had different levels from 150kt (Frigate mass)/ 150LY (same distance as 15 LY in SE V) to Unlimited/Unlimited ( which was exclusive to One primary Race ability). Most normal races toped out at 600kt (crusier mass)/ 600 LY (60LY in SE5). Secondly exceeding the limites of the stargates (mass or distance) meant serious ship damage to even total destruction of fleet. The limits applied on both gates; so you could always try to gate 200kt ship 200LY from 300/600 to 150/150; but b/c only gate is strong enough to handle the requirments; ths ship will be damaged( 40+%).
Now with SE 5, I think stargates will be an excelllent idea to the game and make much more fun. It obviously needs some balancing and tweaking but it is an excellent idea. Here is my proposal:
1- Create a new primary race ability like organic tech or crystaline tech and call it "Spacegates Master". Give this ability on the high tech gates and make the research into them a lot earlier and cheaper than other races. I would make Physcs 2 & Astrophysics 2 pre-req to "Adv Space Gates". Make this tech 10 or 20 levels ONLY. Thoses gates are very expensive to constantly upgrade.
3- Using the same requirements as "Adv Space Gates". Create "Space Gates" tech for all races. Make research cost be heigher than ADV version so no there is no benefit for "Space Gates Master" to ever research them. Make them same # of levels as well.
4- Let the KT weight of the gates equal to the maximuim weight it can gate; so 350KT gate = 350ktship mass and obviously max out at 1500KT weight even with Unlimited mass designs to make them fit on ships. Also Make them older level are always available to be build. Yes I know this means 20 different components to the components file. I will write if it is a big deal
5- Create seperate level componets as folows:
Advanced Stargates Level Mass Dist Weight KT MIN ORG RAD 1 350 60 350 14000 3000 7000 2 475 60 475 18000 3500 12500 3 ULM 25 1500 22000 4000 18000 4 ULM 40 1500 26000 4500 23500 5 350 ULM 350 30000 5000 29000 6 475 ULM 475 34000 5500 34500 7 1000 30 1000 38000 6000 40000 8 1000 60 1000 42000 6500 45500 9 1200 ULM 1200 46000 7000 51000 10 ULM ULM 1500 50000 7500 56500 StarGates 0 Level Mass Dist Weight KT MIN ORG RAD 1 350 30 350 10000 3000 5000 2 350 60 350 14000 3500 10000 3 475 30 475 18000 4000 15000 4 475 60 475 22000 4500 20000 5 475 90 475 26000 5000 25000 6 575 30 575 30000 5500 30000 7 575 60 575 34000 6000 35000 8 575 90 575 38000 6500 40000 9 1000 30 1000 42000 7000 45000 10 1000 60 1000 46000 7500 50000
The table is obviously in need of major balancing. This just a ruff sketch.
6- Use the same as Stars! system of Stargates ussage. Have each stargate sellect any destination gate. And use the limits on both gates as well with damage penalties for "over-gatting".
7- Have gatting a ship costs 7 movement pts. While a lot; it is a lot faster than moving through 4 warp pts.
I know this is alot to read one shot; I want to ask your opinions if it will improve game play?
So what do you think?? Is it do able?? Is it Modable?? Can at least expect it in SE6?
Thanks for reading. Comments always welcome??
Re: Starbase Based Stargates??
All warp points created by players have the standard size, so anything can use them. I've long wished for variable size warp points, when made by the game itself and by players. That would go a long way towards your idea.
I already know this but do you know what level in stellar manipulation is needed for warp pts. It is level 35 and only after 6,080,000 research pts. That happens after you are so large and strong that your empire starts to have fun in the game. warp points openers/closers are useless in real game. The tech I am talking about should be possible with less than 1,000,000 research points.
secondly, a stargate doesn't open a warp point in the middle of space. It needs another stargate to work. Your ships gate from one of your bases w/gate to another base w/gate; not to an enemmy's system or an empty system. It will be mainly used to help move ships across big empire not as an offensive weapon.
Warp point openers/closers are great "marketing" abilities with little to no real game usage. Either one is too powerfull to lower research cost. They are too powerfull b/c the ability to open an unlimited warp point to anywhere in the quadrant. You don't even have to see that location or ever been there to do so.
I agree with you that variable size warp points is a great idea. even in the stock universe. I hope MM has time to see this.
Re: Starbase Based Stargates??
Hmm. Just had a thought. (beats actually working!)
This would, of course, have to be coded in by MM before modders could play with it.
Component that can be built onto ships or bases, has no benefit to the thing it's built on but acts as a beacon for another component which can open warp points (temporary or permanent, or a component for each type) ONLY to the current location of one of these beacons. You'd have to fly your scout out to a spot that you'd like a warp point, then have your bigger ship (or base, if movement restriction is removed) activate its component to actually create the warp point.
Could start these out at low distances, and low Stellar Manipulation tech, and later on get the ability to open warp points without a beacon.
Could even have a chance of mis-targetting, so the destination point is one or more hexes off for the earliest techs (or goes to a totally different system by mistake?) but the chance of mis-targetting goes down and disappears with later tech levels.
Two bases, each with both of these components, would effectively be a two-way stargate. I'd love to see something like this where a component created a temporary-only warp point, allowing only the one turn worth of travel.
Re: Starbase Based Stargates??
Chevron 7 engaged!
Re: Starbase Based Stargates??
huh?? I don't get it.
Re: Starbase Based Stargates??
You've never seen 'Stargate' Pkoko? Classic Sci-fi. Shame it ended but I wasn't really watching it in the end anyway.
Re: Starbase Based Stargates??
really i found the last and a half season the best ^^
the main problem with 'sized' warp points would be balance i think.
imagine how easy it'd be to guard a small warppoint where only a few ships could go through at once, especially for the ai but even for players that might be a huge problem
the beacon idea is pretty good, i think it would work best if the 'opener' could only be build on starbases, though i fear (i never actually got to the point of using 'created' warp points in game) it would send the station through it
it would be nice if its would just open it and it be closed automatically once the turn has ended
though again this would be a killer for the ai ^^
Re: Starbase Based Stargates??
In a map where chokepoints abound, a small sized warp point on such a choke point would be a serious impediment, true.
I can see pros and cons to most of the improvements I've seen suggested for the game, though. It all boils down to choosing not to use tactics that you know the AI can't counter. Versus humans, who can figure out ways to circumvent just about anything you can invent, I'm not so worried. You're likely to find a man-made warp point popping up a few hexes away from your blockading force (or in the nebula a couple hops away) and those slimy human-controlled aliens pouring into your systems anyway.
For those who actually do play a slimy race, sorry about the stereotyping. 
Re: Starbase Based Stargates??
I'm a fan of Stars! and know exactly what you're talking about. I don't think it would fit in with Space Empires quite right, however parts of it have been on my wish list for some time. Nearly everything you've suggested would require implementation by MM, not just modders, as most of the warp point stuff is hardcoded into the game and not editable by the fanbase.
You can make ships that have Stellar Manipulation components that open and close warp points. It's sort of similar to stargates. However, you cannot do this with bases because using stellar manipulation components requires that the ship have a movement point, which bases cannot have. Want to simulate a stargate? Make a ship with both a warp point creator and a warp point destroyer. If it has a repair bay so it can self-repair, all the better. Give it a single engine. Voila, nearly motionless stargate-ship. Doesn't give the option for smaller or larger stargates, but it's a start.
All warp points created by players have the standard size, so anything can use them. I've long wished for variable size warp points, when made by the game itself and by players. That would go a long way towards your idea.
I also think that a component that creates a 'personal' warp point, the ship goes through, then the warp point closes would be a nice touch. It would take implementaion by MM though. Similarly, if Aaron did that he could also implement a starbase component that made a one-turn temporary warp point, though this could be used by an advanced empire to really mess with anyone else in the game. (unless the intended victim had researched the system defenses that would block it, of course)
The distance that a level 1 warp point opener can throw a new point (50 ly, IIRC) is rather high in the stock game, also...I'd like to see the tech start out at a really low distance and increase over the course of many many levels of the tech.