For the love of god, please change this

I guess I have to ask, "Why?" It's not like the mods are hacks where the modders have had to reverse engineer the code to figure out how to make changes...the game is intended to be modded, and it's even encouraged. Let MM spend "his" (singular, as in one person) time squashing actual program code bugs and interface items. Improvements of this sort are best conceptualized by folks who actually spend time playing, such as yourself, as opposed to a one-man development team.

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic response, but by insisting on stock game only play, you're setting things up for failure, not to mention missing out on game improvements of the very sort you are specifically discussing.

Welcome!

EDIT: I second what Gusset said.

1. I think a even better solution would be for ships to start with 0 supplies. Shipyards aren't supposed to generate supplies, there are supply depots, solar collectors and quantum reactors for that.
It would be also good to have supply depots, ordnance vats, and maybe quantum reactors to have an additionnal ressource maintenance cost (supply cost for ordnance vats?), so that producing (and also scrapping) supply and ordnance would actually require you to spend a non negligeable amount of ressources on it.

2. I'd rather see the game require you to build a cargo facility if you want to store supply. And make the Ressuply Depot able to store some supply and ordnance too! That way planets will be able to store supplies, but only if you have appropriate structures for that.

Even if you don't wish to use a mod, you can always edit the data files yourself for your personal enjoyment. No reason why you can't make the changes you want in the meantime, while perhaps waiting for MM to change the supply system in the future. The two files you'd want to edit, would be facilities.txt for the Resupply Depot, and PlanetSizes.txt, for the planet capacities.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

The issue is that in "balancing" a game there is lots of balancing to do. You example is one, another would be the ability to shoot a laser from space and wipe out a heavily populated planet. This isn't balanced either. It is playable, but it's not balanced. What your railing against is workable, you build supply depots, or you research supply storage, or research supply depots...
another solution is on all your spaceyard planets, build a couple supply depots and storage facilities.... There are a lot of ways to fix your problem with in the "stock" game.

or you could mod your files. I understand that to some people modding may be a little intimidating, but that's how you learn. You have one little feature that really bugs you, so you fix it yourself and learn how to mod in the process.

SEV, more than a feeling.

Agreed, now that the bugs have been squashed, the supply model needs a bit of rethinking -- building a supply ship then transferring its cargo, then scrapping it seems like a goofy gamey way of supplying a planet.

On the other hand, seeing how supply is handled actually, there is a whole bunch of techs that are (or become) practically useless because you can simply build a ship full of supplies, empty it and scrap it. This is NOT balanced at all, and AFAIK it CAN'T be modded!
I also would like to see ships to be retrofitted, first unload their supply/ordnance, and load them back after retrofitting without having to do this manually.
(And I find that units are handling supplies in a wierd way when launched recovered. I'm sure some supplies/ordnance actually disappear during those transfers...)

I dont find suplys at all anoying as a concept and think it adds to the game. Its also very modable to the point with say the IRM the only time a planet gets low on supplys is when you resuply a large fleat.

I would also sugest you try a mod or two they very definatly add to the game and they are in no way a SCAM

edit if you use a title like you did it certainly looks like a rant at first glance

capnq

"Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyore gloomily. "If it /is/ a good morning," he said. "Which I doubt," said he.

Nobody finds the concept of supplies annoying. It could be just more balanced and be designed so that it adds a lot more depth and strategy to the game. What's annoying is to see useless tech and components laying around.

I knew there was something I was forgetting. I'll be changing the cargo capacity of planets to double or so, and increase supply manufacture. Heck, I'll even give JJSE a nod in the credits.

Longship mod to be released when the new patch comes out so there are no problems..

"Genius is Simplicity" chris connors
"To win without fighting is best" sun tsu
those who think they know everything are annoying to those of us who do

While I can understand a supply depot having a limited ability to generate supplies and ordnance per turn, imo the smallest planet should be capable of storing more supplies than the largest ship ever could - even if said ship has nothing but supply storage facilities, and no engines, bridge, master computer, etc. in its hull.

While a ship's supply limits would be based on storage space (more accurately, the lack thereof) a planet's should be based simply on whehn the stuff goes bad. Better preservation techniques for foodstuffs (which a space-faring civilization ought to have developed already) would extend said lifetime considerably, but I suppose that higher levels of storage tech would only improve upon that, increasing the amount of supplies able to be stored through longevity. Planets just don't have the storage space issues that ships do.

How could a planet store large amounts of supplies and ordnance without appropriate containers? Make 500kT Supply, and Ordnance Storage facilities, or give the Cargo Facility these abilities!

Unfortunately, the Supply/Ordnance Storage abilities are not working on facilities. I have them tacked on the Cargo Facility in the Balance Mod already, but waiting on a fix to this item.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

The main topic of the above statement is continually ignored.
I understand that the majority of you that read this do not have a concept of business ownership. I will try to explain what he's saying.

Who pays for SE5?
You did once, a long time ago. Now MM relies on NEW PLAYERS to pay the bills.
Forget everything you know about SE1-5. Everything. Now pretend you are downloading the demo. You are playing it for the first time. It's fun, you find the concept fascinating and well thought out. Then you run into a lot of things that just don't make sense. Magical supplies. Homeworlds that store less supplies than a tiny ship. Your civilization forgets where colonized planets are. They don't know how to display any strategic information on the map, unless they are actually looking at it.
Yes, these things can be 'fixed' if you mod the files or download a current mod.

If you just downloaded the Demo, do you know how to mod the files? No.
Should we expect them to take the time to fix the problems themselves? No.
Do you even know that mods exist or that they fix these problems? No.

MM continues to fix the game and put out patches. Why?
To support those of us out of due diligence because we have been here since SE1? Sure, but does this pay for their expenses? No.
More importantly, MM releases the patches to sell more and to keep us around for SE6. You make the most profit from repeat customers, not new customers, in the long run. Since this product is a one time sell, new customers are required to continue making profit on SE5. We all know and trust MM to fix the issues we see as veterans, however when someone presents an issue that affects new customers, those issues should be addressed first. New customers affect all of us.

As I have mentioned before, the key here is to contact MM directly via e-mail with a detailed account of the problem/imbalance. A few e-mails on a subject can be a very effective way to getting changes done faster or alerting MM to problems that he might not be aware of. You can also submit items on this site that end up in MM's inbox, but I'd recommend the direct approach.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

For what it's worth, I was just thinking about this subject last night and no matter how I looked at it it seemed that planets should have 10 to 100 times more capacity than they do, from a realism standpoint.

I don't think it would harm the balance of the game as much as it sounds like at first. The production of supplies could remain the same, providing a limit. The main drawback is that the names aren't right because planets end up being depots. But I think it would be more realistic and more convenient for all players. And supply would still be a major factor - just not automatically a major headache.

And it's OT, but and Eee Destroyer is no Deathstar.

jjse logic is correct.

Personnally I think new ships should be created with 0 supply. Planets should have a revised supply and ordnance storage capacity based on the planet size, like storage for units.

In the mean time MM fix this in stock, if he ever does, could this be implemented in the Balance and eventually the Galaxy MODs? It looks like an esay one for me.

I don't mind changing the files once. But it becomes a chore to do it each times there's a new update to install.

I personally agree with Jjse. I would like my SEV game to work as an SEV game. I guess I'm a purist. I just thought I'd let Jjse, kinda hard to write that as a name, know that they're not alone in liking the stock game. It took me a long time to find a stock game to play on PBW.

I guess we'll wait and see what 'He who deserves much praise' thinks about our griping. I think it is an excellent game, and wouldn't swap it for the world, some things are just strange though.

I'll shut up now before I get into trouble.

As supply works right now, more supply/ordnance space for planets certainly would be a good change. But I mantain that if supply ever gets fixed, those numbers should at least go back to their current values.

It would also be interesting to be able use units as supply/ordnance storage (without having to launch them for those you can).
Weapon platforms also shouldn't have free and unlimited supplies. Right now throwing cannon fodder to a planet and waiting for it's supplies/ordnance to get depleted simply doesn't work!

I guess I'm in the minority, here, in that I don't mind abstract treatment of some things; letting some things "just happen" without my having to do anything is fine, at least in the case of something like supplies.

For example, I have no problems with the concept that a spaceyard has a supply generating capability (a SY takes long enough to build, that's for sure), and that it is able to put supplies on a new ship in construction much more quickly than a resupply depot does on an operational ship. If I had to manually manage something like having supplies available at my spaceyards, I'd of course just deal with it, but some little details are of the sort that I can do without having to micromanage.

Abstraction can be a good thing. Sometimes "realism" is a pain in the neck that gets in the way of a good gaming experience. All I ask is that however it's handled, it be consistent enough that I can know the rules.

BlueTemplar wrote:

Quote:

the ability to shoot a laser from space and wipe out a heavily populated planet. This isn't balanced either.

The Death Star not balanced!?!? On the contrary, I find this part of the game to be pretty well balanced.

On the other hand, seeing how supply is handled actually, there is a whole bunch of techs that are (or become) practically useless because you can simply build a ship full of supplies, empty it and scrap it. This is NOT balanced at all, and AFAIK it CAN'T be modded!
I also would like to see ships to be retrofitted, first unload their supply/ordnance, and load them back after retrofitting without having to do this manually.
(And I find that units are handling supplies in a wierd way when launched recovered. I'm sure some supplies/ordnance actually disappear during those transfers...)

not trying to belabor this point but... what I was talking about was a ship killing every person on a planet without destroying the planet itself. of course a deathstar could destroy a planet and everyone on it. but come on imagin an orbital ship shooting a laser at each and everyone on a planet. I suppose a really big laser could hit a big enough area a scorch a large spot on the surface... then if you just moved the beam around you could scorch the whole surface... maybe it could work (without destroying the whole planet).
SEV, more than a feeling.

I also think that gameplay is more important than realism, but this is more a gameplay problem:
Why would you bring supply containers, solar collectors, ordnance vats and quandtum reactors with your fleet (and why would you research them in the first place?) when you can simply bring along a space yard ship, and build supply as you go?
Or build one turn of supply sats/fighters (instead of waiting several turns for a supply depot) on a recently colonised/captured planet if you don't have space yard ships yet...

Except a SY Ship cannot move and construct at the same time.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

You can expend all your movement, queue one turn's worth of supply units, and move on the next turn when the units are done.

I agree with jjse, planets should hold more supplies, resupply depots produce more supply, etc., but there are plenty of balance issues and MM needs to focus on more important issues (AI?) that hurt game play more. If MM fixes this problem, every other person that's found a minor balance problem will want MM to fix their's too, and MM would not have the time to focus on more important bugs.

I'm generally with jjse on this, for several reasons but in particular because the workarounds to the current supply weirdness don't make sense for the AI, giving it yet another significant disadvantage which it really doesn't need.

I can, however, see a tiny domed planet storing less than a frigate; remember, these ships are huge by modern standards. The starting level frigate is 250,000 tons. The largest modern naval class described as a "frigate" (German F125) is 6,800 tons (typical modern frigate sizes seem to be more in the 2,000 to 4,000 ton range); the largest traditional combat vessel (Japanese Yamato) 72,800 tons; the largest capital ship of any sort (US Nimitz) 102,000 tons. So the smallest, lowest tech combat ship in SEV is about two and a half times larger than the biggest (and one of the higher tech) combat ships in the world today; and in comparison with modern frigates, two orders of magnitude larger.

By comparison, a small cluster of domes on some tiny hostile planet, barely supporting a research outpost or an intelligence listening post, might easily have less climate-controlled space, especially if it's on something like (or even worse than) Mercury or Pluto where things can't be just left lying around outside

Part of the problem here is the reduced dynamic range of various planet-related things in SEV (and many similar games). The usable space of a domed colony is 1/5 that of an un-domed one; a more realistic view might be 1/100 or less to start out, gradually increasing to perhaps 1/10 with advanced technology and considerable infrastructure development.

Similarly, Mercury is about 1/7th the surface area of Earth, and Pluto about 1/30th. Depending on exactly what you consider "surface area" to mean on a gas giant, Uranus and Neptune are ~15x Earth, Saturn ~84x, Jupiter ~120x. If you wanted nice round numbers for the five categories in SEV, and setting Tiny at 1, you could go Tiny 1x, Small 5x, Medium 25x, Large 625x, Huge 3,125x. Under these rules, our traditional solar system would come out as Mercury: Small, Venus: Medium, Earth: Medium, Mars: Medium, (Asteroid belt), Jupiter: Huge, Saturn: Huge, Uranus: Large, Neptune: Large, Pluto: Tiny.

The above accounts for the fact that once a planet gets to be a certain size, it seems to get even larger rapidly, along with the limitations of only five categories; it'd be a more generalized and even progression to go with six categories: Tiny 1x, Small 5x, Medium 25x, Large 125x, Huge 625x, Gargantuan 3,125x. With a six-category definition, our traditional solar system would come out as Mercury: Small, Venus: Medium, Earth: Medium, Mars: Medium, (Asteroid belt), Jupiter: Gargantuan, Saturn: Gargantuan, Uranus: Huge, Neptune: Huge, Pluto: Tiny.

Oh, and on either of the above scales, a classic Niven ringworld would be about 75,000,000x, and depending on exactly what interpretation of a Dyson sphere you went with, several to many times that

"Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyore gloomily. "If it /is/ a good morning," he said. "Which I doubt," said he.

I think jdunson has shown pretty well that you can't get "realist" considering numbers for such things as astronomic scales, they tend to be logarithmic.
Look at the scales of the Solar System!
That's why you really can't talk about realism: you have to think in terms of gameplay.

I doubt I'll ever be in favor of ships building without supply. I just don't want to hassle with going around ship-by-ship transferring supplies.

And I can rationalize that some of the cost of the build is goods traded to spacefaring merchants.

Turns take long enough now, and I don't think anyone really wants to have to manually supply their own newly-built ships. I am off-scale pro realism, but I'm lazy as well. This would just be a pointless hassle and only change things in exceptional circumstances.

On the supply issue: domed planets don't much matter. "Supply" refers mainly to energy, and energy storage in the hyperspace age need not be enviromentally friendly or large. Even now you don't need to breathe the air inside your battery - just run a couple of cables to it.

This is sci-fi. It's problematic to justify any limit on energy storage on realism grounds. The limits need to be justified on playability grounds. The present limits don't work either way. They only make sense on familiarity grounds; and considering the learning curve of the game that shouldn't have much pull for most of us.

Who said anything about having to manually load supplies on the ship? You would just have to make sure that the planet has enough supplies before building the ship, they would be loaded automatically as the ship is built.

I thought GG built ships with no supplies through a script dumping all the supplies when the ship is built. I personally think that this is the better way, combined with removing the emergency resupply pod. Unless there's a way to ensure that it can't be repaired without sufficient supplies present.
Though this way a better infrastructure for supplies would be required in an empire.

Surely a ship would be designed to accept the supplies, I doubt they'd put fuel in a fuel tank before it was in an assembled vehicle, it just makes more sense to finish the vehicle first.

Hmm, I think the game needs tlc of this kind, the major issue here is Aaron at MM needs help, he should have a staff of assistants, but staff cost money, money comes from sales, sales require a marketing mindset, Aaron doesnt have a marketing mindset, Aaron needs staff. Here we go round the Moebius bush.

Also what will happen to SE if he has an accident (heaven forbid)?

I love the game but haven't played for a while as I am waiting for more bugs to be fixed. The thing that obstructed me most about supply was the way I could not upgrade engines because the volume of increased supply drains the planet and also there used to be a bug with movement being reduced to 1 for one turn when you put new engines in, (whenever supplies dropped to zero in fact even if replaced during the same turn) is that fixed now?

This made refits involving engine upgrades very long winded so I had to run legacy designs way past their sell by date. To cap it all you could not improve hull size (eg frigate level 2 goes to frigate level 3) without forcing engine upgrade (if researched eg ion level 2 to ion level 3) because you could not select hull without wiping the design and legacy engines were not available to use in new hull designs, only latest. So you have to be very careful about when you research new engines relative to new hulls. I used to research about three levels of engine early on and then leave it for a long long time before researching any more.

My thought on supplies was that you should be able to manufacture them in the build queue if required.

If you want to complain for size discrepancies, just take population transport into account. To house people in very austere conditions for voyages lasting a few weeks (US troop transport ships in WWII), you needed 5-10t (steel, arguably). Assume hibernation and 0.5t for each passenger, than transporting even 1 million colonists would need 500kt cargo space.

all this sort of stuff should be done under the hood. Keep the good and throw out the bad or i least keep it from bogging the game down. Keep the game simple yet fun. Any game that starts to get into actually moving supplies and stuff will lose most people. The Fun parts of the game to me are.

1) Designing Ships
2) Tactiacl Combat
3) Researching
4) Exploring

Anything other then that is going to bogg the game. Add to those 4 items all you want but please keep it simple.

That was the idea for the Proportions mod. Haven't played the SEV version yet, but in SEIV this was well implemented. Facilities also took ages to build, but some of them were of gargantuan size and provided a large number of colony bonusses.

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See my PBW game stories on http://users.pandora.be/banzaiboy/sevpbw/.

What I'd like to see, rather than the current copy past size limitations, is a random range. A small planet can hold anywhere from X Million to X Million people, X to X facilities, etc. So it is unlikey to find two planets the exact same size. This could be gotten from a table to correlate with the real size of planet (diametere not small medium large etc).

As far as modders go they'd still use the small medium large reference or better yet just size1 thruogh whatever.