Worth getting?

The games take vastly different approaches to space opera 4x gaming, and aren't really directly comparable. Going from one to the other is definitely not more of the same, as they are not very similar games. Personally, I have always found the SE way to be deeper and more satisfying than the GalCiv way.

SpaceEmpires.net | Space Empires Wiki

I cut my teeth on GalCiv 2 which was the first 4x game I played after MOO3 (which was awful).

GalCiv 2 has alot of great things about it, esp. the AI, but what it lacks is depth in combat. The combat system is flat; ie, missiles are the same as beams are the same as mass drivers. There's no ranges, no tactics beyond throwing more stuff at the enemy than he can throw at you.

GC2 seems very...dunno, I suppose it's like little-league nerf football compared to the NFL. A nice game, but not...gritty and realistic enough for me. I do love the ship designer tho, and I would spend hours doing nothing but designing a ship.

I found out about SEV on the GC2 forums, and immediately bought it after downloading the demo. SEV is all that GC2 isn't. It has a better diplomatic system (when it works, right now it's pretty crummy but all the options are there to devise any sort of diplomatic treaty you can think of, including weapons restrctions, etc), the combat is more dense and technical (much more complex than the rock-paper-scissors formula used by GC2), and there is enormous options for colonization and ship design. It can be overwhelming at first, but trying a few games with the all tech option is helpful for figuring out what weapons you like, etc.

SEV is also readily and easily customizable/moddable. GC2 does this well too, but between the two games I have to say I find the way SEV does it easier and more straight forward than GC2. After playing a few games of SEV and figuring out whats what, I'm busily working on a story-driven campaign that will also have an extensive mod to the basic game, with lots of scripted events and objective-based missions. SEV has enormous potential, much more in my mind than GC2 does.

GC2 does have a superior AI, probably the best AI of any strategy-based game I've played. Stardock is also much bigger than MM, so coding an extensive AI is much easier.

All in all, if GC2 and SEV could merge, taking the ship design and AI elements of GC2, and the combat and diplomatic and colonization options of SEV, it would be the ideal and unstoppable 4X game. Until Galactic Empires emerges, I'll take the more technical SEV over the much simplified GC2 any day.

I liked galciv not the second though, it hurt me deeply....

But SE5 is like the first galciv, but better....

GalCiv 1 is much more unlike SE than GalCiv 2 is though, isn't it?

SpaceEmpires.net | Space Empires Wiki

Space Empires (IV or V, either way) is quite possibly best-of-breed in the wormhole style of turn-based space strategy game. Gal Civ I was, IMO, quite possibly best-of-breed in the open space style. I didn't care for what I saw of Gal Civ II on the website, so haven't bought it and can't comment on it.

Both get frequent updates and many of them, so that's pretty much even.

As previously mentioned, the AI in Space Empires V needs some serious work. Unnamed has been working on the stock game's AI and there are a couple major mods out there which have improved AI among other changes. The AI in Space Empires IV (current patch level of stock game) is better but still not excellent. Adding third-party races can help, some of them are quite nicely scripted. I play long, large games with finite resources so I see a lot of the shortcomings in the AI cripple it eventually.

The Gal Civ I AI is more solid than the Space Empires V AI, but it cheats (is programmed to have omniescent knowledge of some things, etc) and that's a big no-no to me. It can also be outmaneuvered easily once you realise the formulaic way it plays.

Ships are infinitely more customizable in Space Empires than in Gal Civ I. I know Gal Civ II has a ship designer so maybe that's equivalent now...(shrug)

Techs in Space Empires allow for widely different play styles. Near as I can tell, in Gal Civ I if you didn't research up particular tech paths early on, you would have serious trouble surviving long enough to mop up the tech tree later on.

Due to the wormhole/system style of Space Empires, you can use pinch points on the map to help control access to the areas of your empire. In Gal Civ I, you had to use fast ships and ships with wide sensor ranges to keep the interlopers out. Occasionally you could pinch off certain portions of the map and make enemies' supply runs too long to get to parts of your empire, but often you'd just figure out what thing was irresistable to them and heavily fortify it, and they wouldn't rethink their attack plans.

Years ago the guys who made Stars! were working on a sequel, but I think it got scrapped. Too bad, because in the open-map style that had long been my favorite. Not moddable though, AFAIK.

Certainly the most incredible aspect of SEV is multiplayer games. The AI simply will never match up to the thrill of playing against the best of the SEV minds. I'm amazed at the things that I never thought of (until they're done against me). In fact, I realize now I'm a pretty simple player... I'd never used much in the way of fighter, troops, capturing planets or ships, mines, satellites, weapons platforms.... You simply don't need to versus the AI...

However, I now realize if I ever want to be competitive versus humans... I'd better get a hold of some seriously improved strategy and tactics...

SEV is the Chess of space opera games... GCII is like risk.... no depth...

Javaslinger

I'd place at the first place of the "Open Space" category Stars! with no doubt.

I agree that the Space Empires series is the best in the "Wormhole style" category (or any category )

Alpha Centauri is by no means a "wormhole style" game; its a civ-style game.

SpaceEmpires.net | Space Empires Wiki

I was talking about the "any category" part. And SMACX is not completely "open space": you are somewhat restricted by sea.

SEV's and GCII's ship designer should be combined....maybe in SEVI?

Well it depends on what kind of game you want. Galciv 2 looks nice, but strategy-wise SE4 and 5 are much deeper. The ship designer in galciv 2 is pretty symptomatic about the game - it looks really nice, but strategy-wise you can make a ship that looks really great, but it has no real effect on the combat. So if you want a visually well-designed game with some strategy in it, galciv 2 is what you should go for. If you are into more hardcore deep strategy, I would suggest SE5. There are so many choices in it. Another game you might wanna try is that new 4x Lost Empire - it looks kinda neat too, it hasnt been released yet, and I have not seen any messages of a beta, but according to its web site www.polluxgamelabs.com/lostempire its gonna be released tomorrow.

Lost Empire seems interesting I must say... it does however seem like a good looking, cut down SEV clone. And I'm not sure about the dragons!
I do like the way they've stressed the AI is hard.

Anyway, I may very well buy it when it comes out, just to see what its like... not bought a game since oct 16/17th when SEV was out!

SEV is good to own I believe as it is not that costly at this point and it is getting closer to what it should have been at launch with each patch.

I would suggest looking into Sword of the Stars as well. While not as deep as SEV it is a beautiful game with a difficult AI. Sword of the Stars just released an expansion pack "Born of Blood" that adds a new race and many new features that make for a deeper richer game.

http://www.kerberos-productions.com/sots.shtml

Well just some quick comments about Lost Empire...I picked it up the otherday at strategy First for 17.30 Euros...however I went back to check it and it is no longer for sale there...it has been moved to some other site for sale and now costs 29.99 Euros. That price is way over the top for this game.

Now a few quick comments about the game...it seems like a cross between SEV and MOO...and I'm sure a few other 4x games. Basically the reasons I didn't like it...

Game set up as far as I can see, doesn't have many options like SEV does or even MOO...you can change the victory conditions the amount of resources and the view distance (which btw I dont really know what it does as the popup help for that wasn't showing...but I would assume its the distance you can see!...DOH)

Race creation...you can choose from 7 differnt race portrates and then choose different "skill" areas for them...or you can choose one of the 7 pre-made races...ooohhh Dragons!

In the quadrant map ships move between systems using the moo movement style not the SEV warp points...that was about the only thing that I liked.

No really control over your plantes/systems...no facilities you just simply up grade them eg space camp ----> moon base etc...very simple!

There is no really control over ship combat...yes it is in 3d, but your ships are controlled by the comp so there is not much strategy to be had.

That brings me on to ship design...a bit similar to SEV but much more simplified.

Research is done by selecting what you want to research and waiting...I assume that if you choose two areas or more of reseach your RP are divided between them...I ended up just selecting eveything and waiting...seemed to work ok, at least on normal ai hardness.

All in all after about an hour playing I was bored...something that has never happened with SEV...I may have been frustrated & angry with the bugs in the early days, happy when playing PBW or against myself, and many other feelings, but NEVER bored!

Lol u are also the lucky owner of a SF copy? Apparently it was for sale for a little while there - cause thats where I bought it as well.

I kinda like the thing where there isnt too much management of planets cause in some games that just leads to too much micro management - like for instance in MoO3. Thats one nice thing about Lost Empire - cause then you can get a huge civilization without too much micromanagement I think.

I'd say this game is definantly worth getting. If you like a very in depth game, with thousands of hours of unique game play (not exagerating), then you will like this. Yes, its a bit under cooked, but sometimes you have to substitute substance for shine.

And the AI for stock has gotten a whole lot better since I quit playing three months ago. They now like to spam fighters too, and dont do suicide "no research" pacts. I'm a n00b by the way, so dont take my word for anything.

I own Gal Civ II and SEV... I have no idea where my Gal Civ II CD is and I don't care to look. A moddable game has so much more to offer and really has very few limits. For this SEV is the best bang for my buck and time. I can't even remember what Gal Civ II was like... MOO2 is still a top on my list though the lack of solid multiplayer kinda sucked...however it stands the test of time.

MOO3 is actually my 2nd favorite. Sure it took me 4 months to figure out how to play the game, but once I finished that curve.. its a beautiful game. Just have to learn how to set up its version of "ministers" which are a bit in depth. I still have issues with SEV ministers. They seem to scrap half the stuff on my planets..so I just noob it and do not use them. The only faults in MOO3 to me besides the monster learning curve that everyone hates are

1) after seeing the SEV tech tree... MOOs is lacking...
2) late game it becomes how many armadas can you throw at their armadas (i had an ongoing war for 30 turns.... 36 armadas vs thier lower tech 50 or so... got old...basically became a turn-based version of an RTS... how fast can you build.
3) the ai flakes in a few odd areas... mostly an annoyance
4) they have the galactic council, that if you do not start on... you seem to never be able to get on so diplomacy gets carbunkled alot.

most the problems I have heard from people about it could have been fixed if they just put in a better automtion system for micro-management.

however the size of the universe in MOO3 was much bigger... at least from what I can see (which I like...long games of slow teching that i can play off and on) but that seems to be somewhat? moddable in SEV

Yes, very cheap in Europe- well good old blighty anyway- if the delivery wasn t more than the game /%((((£*"! I bought it to get all the mods for SEIV, and a reliable version of SEIV on CD.

Lost Empire has a new home page now - you should go check it out theres some more info on the game. Ive been playing it a lot recently - you can see what me and other folks are saying about it in the forums - I'd appreciate some more folks to play against in multiplayer The site address is:

www.polluxgamelabs.com/lostempire

I got the game as well. And you are terribly wrong. This is an awsome game. I doubt im ever coming back to SEV. It is indeed different from everything else. Just the sheer size of the galaxy is so cool, as you really fell your in space and not just part of a board game.

Setting up the game is easy, but playing it is challenging, just the way I like em. You can change almost everything when you create the races, it seems like thay have gone further than MOO2 witht this, but kept the style. I like the idea of dragons (or Chi Lung) as they are called They play very differently than the other races, eating their population to survive. They seem strong, at least in the beginning, but as far as I have tried, it is balanced.

I dont see a quadrant map as TakAhLab says, but a whole universe to explore. The MOO style of movement is great and imho the only way to do it.

There seems to be plenty to do with the colonies, just not in the usual manner (building a tedious row of the buildings each game). In LE you have to actually govern the systems with your leaders, which opens up for some great strategy.

There are no tactical screen, thank god, thats so boring. In LE it depends on your ability to design the ships and there a lot of stuff you can equip on them. While seeming more simple in the window layout, having checked the sciences to be used, it actually seems to be more complex than SEV. The battle is shown in a very nice 3D style, imho quite a step upwards in graphics quality compared to both SEV and GC2.

Research seems a bit like SEV but is more varied in the types of sciences you can do, much more strategic choices. It is possible to research several items, but I find that I need to optimize the research now and again, which is cool.

I can only recommend LE.

Is there a demo for Lost Empire?

I'll give you my copy if you want!...is that legal?...who cares!

Heh. Well, being as you can still sell used games you should be able to give'em away.

Somehow I don't get the impression you intend to leave a copy on your machine to play later...

I was wondering whether anyone saw any reviews of Lost Empire yet? Its been out for a week or so and its a great game, but there must be some reviews somewhere soon.

I was going to write a my own review of it, but I got bored again & couldn't be bothered...

Right I promise...I won't slag off lost empires anymore!

lol u can say what you feel about the game, but I'd still like to see a real review of it somewhere.

They just released a new patch btw, which fixes a bunch of stuff.

Tak have been quite involved with SE5. I would think his review of such a game would be even more valuable then an obscur magazine comments which are often biased. So, let us know when its ready!

Just found a real review of the game today - they mentioned it on the Lost Empire forum. The guy likes the game and gives it 6/8 - he wants better UI and a multiplayer matchmaking system - but like the leaders, the science tree and lots of other stuff. U can check it out here:

http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/07/lost-empire-review.html

Helker wrote:

I agree that the Space Empires series is the best in the "Wormhole style" category (or any category )

Have we forgotten our roots?

Does anyone seem to rememnber VGA Planets? This is the first 4x Space Opera I remember playing on PC, and it got it's start on BBS's, before there was a big 'Web' presence on the internet. While it doesn't have the nicest interface, it still offers a level of complexity that SE:V has yet to match. It's currently in it's 4th version, has a great PBEM client,and still has a huge following. That was my introduction to this addiciton. Beyond that, were Overlord, MOO, Ascendancy, MOO2, SE:III, GalCiv, SE:IV, MOO3, GalCiv2, SE:V.

I must admit I did not give MOO3 a fair shake, I will remedy that in the future. After SE:V wears thin...

-Ardak