IRM v 0.7c

Good so far. but I have one request could you have a look at the code for ministers and see what you can do about getting them to work betterindividually particularly the colonization and population transport ministers. This might be a long term thing as I have seen similar problems with both the ballence mod and stock.

The mod data files list the medium freighter as allowing a maximum of 14 engines but yet I was able to install 20 something engines on a recent design. Essentially every box that could hold an engine had one in it. That sucker had a listed movement rate of 25. Not bad for a freighter......

That last would make a realy good troop transport keep up with a fleet and land troops before the defenders could get a shot in.

I don´t know if anything of the following has been noted before:

-) Atmospheric Modification Plant at max level 40 leeds to -9.5 years for conversion
-) Small Phased Shield Generator produces normal shieldpoints
-) Small Plasma Shield Generator needs 1 Supply?? - intentionally ??
-) overall no benefit in choosing any other shield generator than standard or phased - full size plasma and null-space cost much more but performe the same as standard and phased shield gen. Looking at the small shield gens, it's even worse there... the more expensive the generator, the weaker its performance.
-) Some Techlevels go far beyond any useful results (eg. max Techlevel 75 and last level with any useable result at Techlevel 21)... I just can't recall the exact Techs, but there were some.

I tried IRM 0.7b with the new patch 1.25 and got it running, but on max. difficulty and with medium bonus to the AI, after 60 Turns, not ANY AI has built a single factory or colonized a second planet - not sure if this is mod-related, but I mention it, just in case...

After much ranting the most important:
Thanks for this very good and enjoyable mod!!

Haven't been able to play as much as I'd like, but I have been using 0.7b a bit, and the main thing that seems to be holding back the AI is still the PD issue. Since you didn't mention any changes to it, I assume it's still the same. Here's a typical scenario:

A Fleet of 30 AI frigates shows up at a new colony and I scramble whatever fighters I can scrape up - maybe as few as 6-8 - and send them out to engage. It turns out only about 6 ships of the enemy's 30 are even capable of firing one weapon at fighters. My small fighter squadron gets killed or crippled, but in the process they manage to take out most/all of the enemy able to target fighters. Hence, my next wave of 6 fighters is able to cut the fleet to ribbons with hardly a scratch.

I have to say I like how you've set up the weapons and wouldn't want it to change radically (for example by making all DUC's into autocannons as Badger suggested). I think it needs to be addressed in ship design. More ship types need PD/Autocannons, so that a fleet can take losses and not be a sitting duck afterward to fighters.

Thanks again for all your work.

Concerning the shield generator typos, I just redownloaded v0.7b again - it's the same version with the errors I posted initially. So, maybe you fixed it in an unreleased version?
The 1 supply for small plasma shields has no noticable effect.

as for the techlevels - here's what I found:

-) Applied Research - max level 40, gives Research Lab - max. Level 20 --> +20 Techlevels

-) Tractor / Repulsor Beams - max level 100, no result of research visible (no tractor beam) --> +100 Techlevels without useful result

-) Stellar Manipulation - max level 100, last result is Sphere World Generator level 1 at Techlevel 80 --> + 20 Techlevels

-) Crystalline Technologie - max level 75, last results are Solar Generator at level 51 and Energy Refractor at Level 51. --> +20 Techlevels

Maybe I'm all wrong and criticising an obsolete version of IRM, but that's the version available via the download link in the mods section of this forum.

Nothing of the above is a real gamebraker (except the AI thing, but maybe it's just my bad luck) - so: Keep up your good work!

But may i suggest a big part of the problem is that even your Improved AI isn't - csan't - use specialists very effectively.
sure, you can HAVE some specialists - missile boats, for example - but if the AC is the Weapon Du Jour for the AI, things like what he was mentioning, and Stuka's missile - overwhelm trick, simply don't happen - it's one thing if the AI is at a slight DISADVANTAGE - if its TOTALLY UNABLE TO FIGHT BACK - to target fighters for example, you don't have what we've all seen - the AI having 30 ships that just can't DO anything.

PLEASE just TRY the ALL-AC (all DUC to DU-AC) fix - it has totally changed how my game is running.
You'll have to tweak thespecs a little on it, but thats FINE> the point is to keep the AI from BEING UNABLE TO RESPOND.

Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

first this isn't a fix: i saw the Mood, "BloodThirsty" on an Ai for the first time - is that a FH addition? If so, I like it.

The Colonists that Alien is afraid of - it's seeming consistent, and i don't get that in stock - I'm not saying it's your fault, I'm ASKING if it could be quirk in th emod?

Good fix on the happiness thing. i'm sorry it all had to go to stock - i hope you catch the .. i don't want to say bug - quirk? - and get to implement your changes to that without the "indifference engine" kicking in.

I think you should really consider incorporating Stuka's "Fighter garrison" Ai suggestion - at least for the more defensive neutral AI's? The Ai could definitely use good strategic templates, and his is a good one.

Lastly but not least, i know its not my place to tell you how to run your mod, FH, but don't let that I'm too rusty to script obscure that i am not a total fool (any more than you are since your way of looking at PC's isn't theirs- please give some REAL CONSIDERATION to the AC not DUC as default weapon suggestion.
after all, its really your creation. It never occurred to me DUc wouldd be anything BUT rapid-fire.. so i wouldn't have split them- but you did and by doing so, made the dual-purpose weapon the computer NEEDS to NOT be caught as it so often is, with no way to fight back.
Give it a turn or 2 run, just try it - before you finalize 7c. I sincerely think your AC was the solution to oh, about 3,001 complaints.
you'll have to re-balance the AC if its a default weapon - but that's fine, no?

Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

If I was to face a 20x20 square-sized formation AI using my compact formations, given I have a decent fleet (15~30 ships total, various specialists, for BM but the principle holds even more in IRM I think) I could take on much bigger fleets so long as I don't run out of supplies/ordnance. Who cares how many ships the AI has if only a tiny fraction are ever in range to shoot at me, when all my ships are shooting back?

I haven't played IRM so I can't tell how effective "Tanking" would be, but in BM and stock, the AI would just start shooting the first thing it sees - which would be my super heavily armoured/shielded front-line ships that have 1 PD weapon or something ridiculously skewed for defence.

From my knowledge of Strategies that the AI can access, there is no way it can do any advanced tactics. All it can do is Charge or Retreat. It doesn't even know how to Stop And Wait, let alone Flank or Strafe. But that's beyond the scope of this project at present. Simply making the AI place ships more compactly will help make big fleets harder to kill. PD is useless if its sitting 50 ls behind the front lines just because that's where it's supposed to stand in formation.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

this isn't IRmod specific, but i think you are the only one who thinks like this...
The %potential damage, rather than being a fully random function, should be based on HIT QUALITY - a perfect hit is 100%, a barely-gotcha glancing blow, far less of the potential damage.
Knowing your method, you'd find a away to factor that into penetration...
(and a few of us will applaud, others won't notice and that's OK)

how to set up "hit quality", i did in a role-playing game,
and in effect boils down to "attack roll needed" vis-a-vis "attck roll made" how to do this in this system, I have NO idea - most of the scripting is still invisible to me - but i could only think of 1 person likely to be both interested and give a xiati's-ass.

Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

..and you know what i got? An AI that CAN ACTUALLY FIGHT BACK.

I get an AI that NO LONGER loses 7 ships to one Parthain.
That no longer has me ready to scrap all my fighters so the game won't be TOO EASY.

And here's WHY: The DUC IS a specialty weapon:
in that it is ship-to-ship (ship to base, satellite, ok)- But is USELESS against the 2 MOST COMMON THREATS: Fighters and Seekers

Even your AI pumps out cannon ships like there's no tommorrow.. what do you get? 30 ships that SUCK.

The AI doesn't do SPECIALIST anything all that well.
and the DUC IS a specialist weapon. The AC ISN'T. It's a tool the AI can use NOT to have it's pants down all the time. A tool it BADLY needs, which you created but no one really saw it for what it was!
True, an AC ship will get beat up by a DUC ship.
Generalists tend to lose against specialits. But which will work in MORE situations?

And the biggest difference - when the computer comes at me with 30 friates , the numbers will TELL.

They have - i TRIED it. I'm playing it.
The SEVERAL empires that I was destroying with IMPUNITY, just flipped the script.
The numbers are telling. I am on the run.
My fighters are getting SHOT DOWN.

I AM GETTING MY ASS HANDED TO ME - and Loving it.

so: Alot of these issues become moot when the Weapon Du Jour doubles as point-defense - the AI isn't having to "balance" as much...
That goes to you.
The AC is too weak? Tweak it.
The single-DUC shell gun? Save that for fighters and dogfights - that's all it would be good for ANYWAY.

[/b]Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

The AI has little clue about fleet composition doesn’t use picket and escort in fleets that I can see and just tends to brigade together what’s about into a fleet. alright so that’s what a player will do in the event of an unexpected attack but I plan my attack fleets in some detail and as far as is possible try them out in the simulator the AI appears not to even simulate it even when it has access to the enemy ship designs.

That said I have seen the AI use up to light cruisers in IRM have been given the tech for cruisers by an AI after a treaty though I have not seen any AI cruisers yet but that was 11 years into a new game of 7b and the light cruisers I did encounter where almost as hard as mine even those of the neutral in 11/11 place one on one in that I beat them but my ship got mauled.

I'm really looking forward to this mod. I've only played BM and this one seems very different. Is there a 'summary' of how it's different? I mean, other than the readme changelog type stuff?

Is there an update coming out soon I should wait for?

Thanks,

Javaslinger

I disagreed with him -in details/method- then. But i do think its a valid line of reasoning: give the AI the tools it needs.

Because relying on the AI -even Haven's improved AI - to make balanced, well-thought out fleets that make good use of balancing specialists?...
Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

Just now.
I'm going to see if ti does anything crazy to my IRM game.

This has the added benefit of me leaving you all the hell alone for a bit!

Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

Proposed solution to this "DUC vs AC" argument: have the AI check if it's a "start at 0 tech" game, and if so make it build more AC ships than DUC in the early game. Make sure formations are made smaller and they'll have the advantage if they outnumber DUC ships.

Incidentally Badger? Your writing style is inefficient. Emphasis loses meaning at the frequency you use it. Tone of voice would be next, but let's not derail this thread too much.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

My stock save games are fine - but it didn't want to load either my Balance or IR Mod Savegames...

What you get is an error reading value "Space Combat Allow Retreat"

thats easy enough. Go to your game types folder, to the mod, data folder,
Settings text.

use Find Next/F3 - find "space Combat Crew boarding Strength"; and on the next line, add your self:

Space Combat Allow Retreat := TRUE
I made it TRUE, but thats up to you, isn't it?
...and don't be like me and mis-type that the first time

Here's the catch...
I have no idea what ELSE it didn't modify.
But the game WILL load.

Post Script: Marines
In doing so, I incidentally noticed that in the stock the crew boarding strength was 0.1
In IRM, it is 0.5!
Now that seems counter-intuitive, without knowing the combat formula, but i can't help but think it's related to the inconsistency in boarding parties we spoke on...

[b] Autocannons for all! [b]

I would hold off patching until the Mods you use are updated of course Steam Victims dont get the choice.

LMAO...

Steam Victims?
That WAS how i felt a few minutes ago.

Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

Like i said in anotehr thread, with the last patch 1.25 , i played the balance mod 1.02 and i noticed that just before arriving to a planet a window would open stating that it could not retrofit since there was no space yards (and there wasn't any) and then the ship would make another movement so it's on the planet and then another window would open stating that the retrofit was done..I didn't play the 0.7 b of your mod with 1.25 yet but if this problem is due to the effect of patch 1.25 , i suppose that problem is there too..if the problem is there with your mod , could you fix that Fallen Haven ? and also will version 0.7c have diplomacy improvements ?

...i would have been equally impressed.

stuka's fighter garrison idea was actually part of his doctrine of AI strategy.
I think the AI should have several "personality"/strategy templates and that it was a good choice for one.

and FH is one of the more serious AI fixer-uppers, so I suggested it to him when he asked what should go in -7c.

Here is stuka's post:
http://spaceempires5.com/en-US/node/2361

Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

Badger, you claim you're not a troll but you hijack these threads with persistent attempts to persuade people to change their mods to suit your vision, instead of their own. I can't deny you have some interesting things to say but I find the way you badger(!) mod makers to change their babies to be quite distasteful. If you feel the need why not ask either Kwok or FH permission to fork their mods to your own liking.

I was looking for "Small Organic Armor" in the component list and it wasnt there - intended?
also there isnt a crystaline small armor..

would be nice to have them, unless its WAD and i have to use standard armor for units :/

I also find the gab between your spaceyard fac. and the spaceyard component extreme, while the lvl1 fac has 3000 base build value the component starts with 1000 at lvl10
either put the component to lvl1 or adjust it a bit to be a bit better then 1/4 of the Fac.
I ran into a problem when i tried to get orbital yards going, they took to long to build stuff and it increased spaceyards on newly settled colonies to over 2 years buildtime, even with increaeign pops it didnt reduce by much. So in order to get orbital spaceyards i kill my building times for new colonies wich isnt a good tradeoff.
I personly like the lvl1 yard component best, a 1:3 ratio befor bonuses from colony sounds ok to me.

Actually he is a Badger in that a Troll is annoying and means to cause trouble a Badger can be annoying but means well just gets a bit over enthusiastic at times.

Moding for SEV seems to be a cooperative occupation at the moment as every one is interested in making the game better. Fallen Haven bundles his uncompilled scripts with his mod and some of them started off as Marans and Kwocks.

tverdoon...

if you ask me not to contact you, you must refrain from speaking to (or about) me in a public forum.
There are also rules against 'flaming' - so if i'm a troll are you a ...Flamer?

;)Anyway:
For anyone else's benefit:
please keep in mind this was in response to a request for suggestions(and a REQUEST that it be TRIED).

say what you will- the point of the forums is to DISCUSS all this stuff...
and i stand by that F-Haven made the fix to all the early-game complaints that ultimately reevolve around the AI not doing PD well...
Whom better to discuss changes with than Modders?
READ the Kwok discussions with Stuka and Grendel, etc. never asked kwok to change his mod... Debate game balance with THE game balance guy.
Ironically, i kept thinking kwok disagreed that CSM's START with too long a range...
turns out that wa something HE fixed in the balance mod.

Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

Yet to actually play, waiting on 0.7c still, but here's a thought that might help.
Specialist Designs are nice.... but... Would it hurt the specialist design very much to force a single of the smallest tonnage weapon that can engage fighters/seekers onto a specialist design?
That way they would be able to fight back a little even on their own while still maintaining a heavy focus.

will the UI not honor tactics such as don't get hurt, etc?

or is the problem getting the Ai to assign any strategy OTHER than the EVER-annoying "opimal range"?

if so, could it be scripted that tactic X is assigned by the AI to all ships of Type Y
(all satellite layers use, don't get hurt, for example?)

Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!

Can the individual ship tactic not be set in the ship design scripts at all?

I just stoped a game at turn 90 or so because with 1.25 patch your ais dont expand nor build much. Out of 9 enemy Ais 2 had 4 planets the rest only 1.
I conqured a AI homeworld and it had no troops not even milita :/
I think someone mentioned that problem earlier...

I did use the turn to find out more about the techtree and noticed the relations between standard armor tech and organic armor tech...tricky:D
I didnt think i needed standard armor to increase dmg reduction but...
I also researched shield to lvl27..but compared to 43 organic armor and 51 standard armor you can forget shield al to gether...
In a sim battle my ships ran out of ammo befor 1 ships died, i will look into my setups tho..but it was funny to watch
The dread had 24mt armor (fleet 1) the "enemy" consisted of 1 hvy cruiser (14mt armor) 2 LC (11mt armor) and 3 friagtes (5600kt armor)
The dread didnt even flinch...he did lose the 6400 shield rather quick but the armor ..oh my the armor lol...

new setups..new sim

btw, the mounts reduce rather then increase "to hit" with direct dmg weapon (crystaline) and the "skip armor" on the guns and torps didnt do much...

p.s. befor i forget to mention it...

lvl 10 ships with lvl 10 contra drives move:
frigate 14 (6 engines)
Destroyer 14 (8 engines)
Light cruiser 14 (10 engines)
Cruiser 13 (12? engines)
Battleship 16 (max alowed dont recall number)
Dreadnought 17 (max allowed)
all shisp are organic

that stirkes me as odd , at least on the bigger ships

i think atm those armor values make the ships invunerable...
I noticed that the armor never dropes below a certain value, at least not in sim, but you allready said you have to retune the armor.
I had dreads with massive mounts , btw after lvl19 in shipmounts..is there anything coming with a other tech or is it just empty?

well i guess i wait for your 0.7c, hope you dont have to fix to much, i do like the mod a lot

Hmm, while you are tweaking to fit v1.25, could I hear your thoughts on Solar Collectors vs Quantum Reactors? Right now, it would seem that Solar Collectors are much better/cost effective than Quantum Reactors. I haven't looked at the structure of the tech tree, so I don't know whether Solar Collectors are higher up in your mod.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

something i want to point out...
1.25+0.7b had ships fly to homeworld on "resupply with nearest supplybase" instead to the nearest supply base.
I had to manually send them to the planets closest for that, for some reason the game didnt recoqnize(sp?) the supply planets or the facility...
not a major issue but a anoying one...

in BM the small organic armor uses the normal organic armor pic fyi, same for crystaline armor if you intend to change that, that is..

Then again, this point is moot since your mod provides Supply/Ordnance factory components that would make logistics much easier. No longer will I need a "18 Quantum Reactor" ship when a max tech Supply factory can produce 15 QReactors' worth for the tonnage of 7.5 and the price of... less than 1 - very sensible to have a big component for a dedicated logistics ship yes.

Actually, putting it this way, there is almost no point to QReactors as smaller ships should use Solar Collectors and Fleets get Supply Factories...

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

Fallen Haven,

Have you Fallen off the earth???

Haven't heard any updates in a day or so... I'm looking forward to trying your mod out.

Thanks,

Javaslinger

Actually, more refined question: what timezone are you in Fallen Haven?

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

Patience... The less time he spends posting, the more he has free to figure out what he needs to do to make everything work with v1.25.

The man posts 30 messages a day on average... I'm worried about the guy!

Javaslinger

good to hear your work comes along nicely!

what would be your "WAG" eta for 0.7c w/o diplo?

Thats good to hear..and gl with the bug hunt!

I wonder, after you fixed up your mod and the diplo stuff, if you would be interested to make a few scripts for FedTNG and Romulans. No existing race really matches and the default AI cant really do much good i guess.
FedTNG: Democratic, Neutral
Romulans: Republic, Schemers (they are afterall based on the Roman republic with a byzantinic touch)
for the klingons i will use a warrior race script that is allready there, if i dont play them myself that is:D
on the other hand my fav. Ship is the Warbird... it looks so awsome, best Startrek design they came up with.

Sadly i got no clue with scripting or i would dig in myself...

Pedantic note

Byzantines are Romans as the empire whose capital was Constantinople was the Eastern Roman Empire. Byzantium is the Latin form of the name of a Greek colony city on the same site.

Calling it the Byzantine Empire is a Victorian affectation, and....

Byzantine is also used to refer to complex things... Or "characterized by elaborate scheming and intrigue, esp. for the gaining of political power or favor:"
_______________________
There are 10 types of people in the world:

Those that understand binary, and those that don't.

yeap i used it in reference for schemeing and plotting like Maciavelli (not sure i spelled that name right)
The Byzantine cort was infamous for schemes, thats why the name stuck.
Same with the german tribe called the vandals, vandalism is still broadly known as destroying senslessly, like the vandals did to some roman towns...

Can't wait. I'm really looking forward to trying your mod out!!

Javaslinger

yeap me too
IRM is a style of mod i like best...lot of techs to keep the brain steaming:D

It happens. We all have a myriad of different things we can do while waiting and it's not the end of the world.
---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

Sadness reigns... Looks like I'll be spending another long night of homework and research....

Javaslinger