Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2 |
(this was previously mis-posted by myself as a response to an unrealted topic-- sorry)
I had gotten into a strange situation because of an alliance I had created with AI Players...They could FORCE me into an alliance against my wishes... I was no longer able to "see" them in the interface- could not talk to them - even break treaties or declare war - because EVERY known race was in the alliance! - only when one contacted me was there a reply option.
What was worse is that every other turn or so, the alliance would vote me in AGAINST MY WISHES!.. Allowing empires i was specifically at war with to escape blockades or attacks because the terms of the alliance included non-aggression...
Not to mention it let them steal my technology- since i couldn't REFUSE to join the stupid alliance.
BUT THIS IS NOT THE POINT>
Aggravated, I deceied to use the ~allplayershuman~ cheat to make the alliance shatter. While i was at it, i was going to fix some little problems like the AI not building fighters- fix fighters for them- such a disappointment to go into a system expecting a battle royale against your hated opponent only to find he has no fighters on those beautiful carriers you were afraid of...
I planned on fixing that, breaking the alliance, and having various empirers surrender to each other or to what was left of the alliance so that i was the human player...
Discoveries of a Mad Voyeur
1. The AI doesnt build fighters for its carriers. This was a great disappointment since i had been so frightened on seeing carriers in a new system and had tweaked my strategies in preparation for the Ultimate Show down!
2. The ai does not refit.
It has a seemingly endless supply of worthless obsolete ships floating around...
3. The AI carries on very pointless technology research unrelated to racial strengths or to any apparent strategy or situations occuring. appears absolutely NonAdaptive.
4. The politics betweeen the AI empires,
despite being in an alliance, was really impressive. The only good discovery i found.
5. It builds "antiship"drones with no weapons or warheads.
6. The AI is too specific in non-combat ship design.It ends up witha n endless array of satellite droppers, mine layers, etc that as i can see ends up with about half its fleet being "utility" ships that do nothing during an invasion.
If it either outfitted them with missiles, or better yet, had 1 or 2 " utility ships"- freighters with 1 satellite component and 1 mine conmponetnt- these work for troops, mines, and satellites- it would take less "planning" and thinking for the Ai i believe.
It WAS 'interesting' to think i was vastly outnumbered and then discover my arch-nemesis (an ally who had turned on me and Razed my home system while my fleet was away!) had 50% or less COMBAT SHIPS. Of these, 1 in 10 ? was current. this was almost as much of a disappontment as the carriers-enemy.
7.The ai builds troop transports (totally unarmed!) BUT NO TROOPS! Come to think of it, i have never seen the AI invade AT ALL.. Only bombard...
Part 2(7th Feb)
so.
I switched sides to the Kzin -the race that had the carriers but no fighters?...
and have played quite abit while testing out stuff -
Fh's AutoCannon; my torps, cargo fixes...
and finally decided they are doing okay enough to switch back. So i allplayershumans again...
wow.
My old empire? All new ship designs. And i'm impressed by how nasty the beam weapons are, but...
Kamikaze Battleships? Are you INSANE?
Do you REALLY need to waste Battleship hulls on SATELLITE TENDERS?
especially when you're BROKE?
more interestingly, all the actual combat ships i saw were ones that I BUILT when i was playing... This gets even funnier in a second.
The abbidon?
My staunchest ally? They now hold the planet "fleet command". They have actually been conquering planets from my old empire. ( i guess since it doesn't use its combat ships, or bother building all those nifty battleships it designs).
they are also broke.
so far as i can see, from maintenace mainly.. which is a bit humorous considering how MANY colonies they have, AND that their ships - they don't have THAT many - are mostly carriers;
...with Not a fighter in sight.
Their best ship is a CL - that uses proton beams instead of a superior psychic beam... and no point defense.
whats worse is these are the that the kzinti - much less tech- AC gunship destroyer tears apart. A parthian like my old empire USED to build (;0) wouldn't even blink at these.
And my old empire is losing a WAR to these abiddon - someone who can build 19th TL Proton Beam battleships!
i thought the drone carrier was cute... since no one NEEDS drone launchers in stock AND THE ABIDDON DONT HAVE ANY.
i was 'upgrading" the drone destroyer to try out some of the nifty psychic weaponry they AREN'T using on me-
and dare i ask WHY the whole abiddon fleet isn't veteran? psychic training facilities are INSANEly good! ?
--- when the game crashed.
don't ask me why. It hasn't in a nice long while.
so..
in conclusion?
1. i keep hearing there are fighters getting built in stock... but certainly i'm not seeing them used. The carriers are KILLING the empires with maintenance costs. when i took over the Kzinti originally, their empire was broke, too - i got out of it by scrapping carriers, but thought at the time it was just bcas breaking the great alliance had taken so much trade income from everyone.
2. i'm not seeing much but 1 "attack ship" design per empire. This is 1.25, and the empires didn't redesign ships so far as i see that could handle anything without help, not using racial techs or point defense or much variety, for that matter.
They DO seem to favor AntiProtonBeams and MissileLaunchers- i'll give it credit for mixing in Missiles on the newest xianti CL i mercilessly crushed with a AC destroyer.
3. i WAS impressed that in my absence the abiddon took over most of my old empire - even without their psychic abilities - but not so impressed that they were able to do so WITHOUT killing the ships I built - what? 6 or more years ago?
so at least the AI is doing SOMETHING - sometimes i wondered.
4. at least the coloniztion ministers are working.
I'm not really sure WHAT the planet ministers are building -
but it isn't keeping the 3 empires - 2 of which were previously in the top3 spots - from being completely broke.
i don't know what to say; I'm disappointed enough to be shocked.
This is beyond that Hello-Kitty Pokemon "kicking puppies"... This is barely functional.
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
Random AI musings
The AI in stock does build fighters (not in great numbers though) and troops. In sufficient numbers though it will use both on ships, but this is extremely rare in stock. The AI also retrofits ships, but is scripted only to retrofit 1 per turn max.
The AI work I've done is for the Balance Mod only. Maran was working on an improved stock AI but he hasn't been around for some time now...
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Ai gripes abound -
The AI work I've done is for the Balance Mod only. Maran was working on an improved stock AI but he hasn't been around for some time now...
A good number of the players i speak with are playing your (kwok's) mod , or IRM, specifically because you two improved the AI, which (the stock AI) is so weak as to make the game pointless to play in the opinion of some...
I was unaware of this at the time i posted this thread, posting it is what led me to this discovery. Never cared enough about a game to check forums before, actually...
So- if this Maran fellow is gone, who is in charge of the Ai now?
I assume MM cares enough about their audience to glance at their official site...
Care to give me this theoretical new fellow's email?
or will they just hire you or haven?
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
ya, the AI always is behind
ya, the AI always is behind me in reserach as well. I usually have literally 50x or more the rp then them.
Re: Ai gripes abound -
I don't think anyone was actually in charge of AI. MM is a one man company, as many have said here before. There are a few AI's out there that can be used for stock. I don't use them since I use BM or IRM, and they have good AI's.
Anyway, the point is, to my knowledge, and from what I've read here, there is no one hired to make the stock AI better. People who work on it, do so as modders, because they wish to make a better AI, not because they were hired to. So, there really is no theoretical new fellow, because, anyone who wants to work on one can. The only official better AI will probably come from MM, but much later after the bugs are worked out.
Re: Ai gripes abound -
And i would prefer Aaron to devote his time making the core engine work properly than try to fix what we modder can. As long as we have the tools and an engine that run well, we can make wonders with this game...
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
Thats an interesting point though.... Anyone know if they are actually taking AI improvement submissions for inclusion in the stock game in patchs, on a purely free basis? I had a stray thought or three for completly rewriting the Planetary construction queue AI this morning to hopefully make it much more adaptive, though it does need the V1.23(or whatever it is when it gets released) patch which fixs upgrading facilities to make it work.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
There's been a lot of scripts added/re-worked in the last two beta versions, including how facilities/units/ships are chosen to be constructed and upgraded. There has also been significantly work on a few other functions that seems to work ok when I've tried them.
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Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
can that cheat ("allplayershuman") be turned off.
AllPlayersHuman Cheat > Host Fix
As far as i know, not directly.
What i had to do was go in and use the surrender option to turn them back into non-players.
You should contact RIPTOKUS - he ended up having to take the game and crunch a turn for me b/c it was crashing my system... he was able to turn it into a multiplayer and as host, tab them back to AI.
What i actually did was make my old empire an Ai and take one of the more interesting NPC's over as my player position.
good Luck...
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
EXTRA! EXTRA! AI FIGHTS BACK!!! Read all about it!
http://www.spaceempires5.com/en-US/node/2287
i "borrowed" Fallen Angel's "autocannon" DUC idea but modded it so that it is the STANDARD default DUC the AI loves WAY TOO MUCH...
Suddenly, the Ai is no longer HELPLESS against the 2 easiest "ubertaktiks" I've seen -
LongRangeMissiles;
Fighters
are they perfect?
well, no.
Would i say my superior tech is giving me an advantage?
probably and it should, I researched superior tech TO have an advantage...
- i'm not sure cos i got so cocky that i wasn't ready for what happened this first turn after my mod
-yes, i mod'd an running game-
my last-turn boringly invincible fighters?
got TORE UP FROM THE FLOOR UP
i think the AI just told me
RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH!!!
am i being silly? sure- but for good reason :
IT JUST GOT FUN AGAIN!
Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
I'd classify them as exploits rather than uber-tactics for the time being. An uber-tactic suggests a tactic that is beyond countering...
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Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
I'd like to quote a user and say "This is a hobby that has gotten out of control..."
Re: Interesting AI discoveries..."ubertaktik"
it was joke, kwok.
The mis-spelling was an inside joke - a nod to someone else-
and the use of the word UberTactic,of course, is anod to - maybe even a "poke" at - you.
No, they AREN'T ubertactics -
Not against a Human player-
i think we agreed in various posts/forums/whatever these CAN be countered...
The point; however, was the AI- even the better MOD AI's that keep people from giving up on SE5- doesn't, at least not very well...
it's SO stuck on DUC...
http://www.spaceempires5.com/en-US/node/2376#comment-13203
That i found a way to make that fact NOT make the AI helpless.
Shouldn't I be Giddy?
DON'T Gawk At The Kwok!
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
Kwok, I would like to make clear that we are not attacking You, nor your mod. We just want to give ideas that help to improve the game.
I think I was the first one that used "ubertaktik" referring to CSM, and sometimes you may find me using some hard comments or expressions (Shitty DUC, and the like...). I just hope You understand I come from Spain, my englis is not as good as I´d like, and sometimes I cannot find better ways to express my ideas. I just try to use the most direct words.
On the other side, joking is just for fun... 
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
I'm not offended at all about the comments, but I would like to get across that the main issue is a weakness in the AI's strategy being exploited and not necessarily in the weapon stats themselves. Improving fleet composition and strategies, plus making fighters play a more active role in attacking are a few items that will make it a less effective tactic. It's just getting the time to put in the new functions to make it happen.
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Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
Fighters themselves, just like parthian missile boats,
are part of the AI's problem -
ultimately, its that it's an AI and so just wont adapt well..
in the short term, both of these are to some point a POINT-DEFENSE problem - sure, there's fleet composition and strategies..
But there is also that the AI builds SPECIALIST ships that cannot deal with these situations...
insufficient PD or what-not.
In the thread I'm having with FH, I'm pointing out that the DUC ships the AI loves so much ARE specialists - in that they are armed in such a way to ONLY be good against other ships- and even then only ships that will get close enough to "slug" with them..
That Parthian ships NEED NOT only exposes a weakness in the Cannon-Ship - which is then COMPOUNDED by the AI often leaving these short-ranged brawlers without point-defense.
guess what happens when these cannons CAN deal -not as well as TRUE point defense- with missiles, and with Fighters, as well as ships?
The AI is no longer constantly helpless.
it IS somewhat about component balance - or you wouldn't have made so many modifications to them yourself...
But in the wash, you're right -
one component, another component - the ultimate issue ultimately is about the AI improving to where it can at least servicably handle meta-game trends.
both IRM and Balance do a MUCH better job at this than stock...
[Troll? No, Sir, I am a BADGER!
Interesting AI discoveries... Wow.
so.
I switched sides to the Kzin -the race that had the carriers but no fighters?...
and have played quite abit while testing out stuff -
Fh's AutoCannon; my torps, cargo fixes...
and finally decided they are doing okay enough to switch back. So i allplayershumans again...
wow.
My old empire? All new ship designs. And i'm impressed by how nasty the beam weapons are, but...
Kamikaze Battleships? Are you INSANE?
Do you REALLY need to waste Battleship hulls on SATELLITE TENDERS?
especially when you're BROKE?
more interestingly, all the actual combat ships i saw were ones that I BUILT when i was playing... This gets even funnier in a second.
The abbidon?
My staunchest ally? They now hold the planet "fleet command". They have actually been conquering planets from my old empire. ( i guess since it doesn't use its combat ships, or bother building all those nifty battleships it designs).
they are also broke.
so far as i can see, from maintenace mainly.. which is a bit humorous considering how MANY colonies they have, AND that their ships - they don't have THAT many - are mostly carriers;
...with Not a fighter in sight.
Their best ship is a CL - that uses proton beams instead of a superior psychic beam... and no point defense.
whats worse is these are the that the kzinti - much less tech- AC gunship destroyer tears apart. A parthian like my old empire USED to build (;0) wouldn't even blink at these.
And my old empire is losing a WAR to these abiddon - someone who can build 19th TL Proton Beam battleships!
i thought the drone carrier was cute... since no one NEEDS drone launchers in stock AND THE ABIDDON DONT HAVE ANY.
i was 'upgrading" the drone destroyer to try out some of the nifty psychic weaponry they AREN'T using on me-
and dare i ask WHY the whole abiddon fleet isn't veteran? psychic training facilities are INSANEly good! ?
--- when the game crashed.
don't ask me why. It hasn't in a nice long while.
so..
in conclusion?
1. i keep hearing there are fighters getting built in stock... but certainly i'm not seeing them used. The carriers are KILLING the empires with maintenance costs. when i took over the Kzinti originally, their empire was broke, too - i got out of it by scrapping carriers, but thought at the time it was just bcas breaking the great alliance had taken so much trade income from everyone.
2. i'm not seeing much but 1 "attack ship" design per empire. This is 1.25, and the empires didn't redesign ships so far as i see that could handle anything without help, not using racial techs or point defense or much variety, for that matter.
They DO seem to favor AntiProtonBeams and MissileLaunchers- i'll give it credit for mixing in Missiles on the newest xianti CL i mercilessly crushed with a AC destroyer.
3. i WAS impressed that in my absence the abiddon took over most of my old empire - even without their psychic abilities - but not so impressed that they were able to do so WITHOUT killing the ships I built - what? 6 or more years ago?
so at least the AI is doing SOMETHING - sometimes i wondered.
4. at least the coloniztion ministers are working.
I'm not really sure WHAT the planet ministers are building -
but it isn't keeping the 3 empires - 2 of which were previously in the top3 spots - from being completely broke.
i don't know what to say; I'm disappointed enough to be shocked.
This is beyond the Pokemon kicking puppies... This is barely functional.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Wow.
After that, i guess the few flaws of my AIs aren't so bad... At least it build a descent fleet.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
My suggestion to fix CSMs: Boost fighter speed. I originally gave them 3x the speed of other ships (with a huge supply usage on their engines if they dared to fly anywhere without their carrier), but they tended to fly too far ahead of the fleet and get swatted down, so I slowed their speed to 2x, which is still more than enough to chase down any long ranged ships.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
little silly question.....with ai talk is often about using larger fleets.
why is the ai never using real fleets? (the kind of fleet that has 1 icon on the map)
i always just see a bunch of ships moving around.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
The AI dose use fleets its just that a player dosent see then as such. if you take over an AI you will see this in tactical combat you will also see AI ships in fleet formations
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
Fighters get real quick by endgame in stock, so quick they look like flies bugging some large animal. It's not the way to fix the problem IMO.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...
I have been & still continue to mod the stock AI.(nothing but the actual AI scripts) The latest patch actually set me back a bit since MM actually fully rewrote a few of the functions. At this point results are more then encouraging as my modded stock AI just pummels 1.25's AI. Colonization is basically double of 1.25 stock as well as research & ships built(plenty of attack ships!). I have tested & tested & retested, but it's hard to encounter all game situations in every test. Any observations or ideas about improving the AI are more then welcome, also with so much observing of the AI I might be able to answer some questions about it's patterns. When I release this improved AI mod it will be able to be added to other mods as no data files have been altered. Hang patient friends because the more I work with it the more I can see that MM has left us a blueprint that can virtually be improved to no end with the proper time & ideas & know how. Thanks!
Re: >Fighters
I am of the opinion that fighters, at least in stock, are a bit overpowered...
In my little adjustments, I actually made fighters SLOWER - and they are still fast enough to catch "Parthian" (fast archer) ships that won't let anything else close, which, I think, is what you were trying to solve more than CSM's in particular - if I'm wrong correct me -
the range thing is only an issue against player ships - or if FallenAngel can talk the AI into letting his archers USE the "maximum range" setting.
- if he does, yee haw- some players will geta dose of their own medicine-
But anyway, so far as I see it, there are adjustments, but fighters are CERTAINLY the ROCK to "parthian" being scissors-
for what my opinion's worth, fighters, even mine, do that Just FINE...
The issue then is getting the AI to actually USE them.
Or..
IF SOMEONE WILL CONVINCE THE AI TO QUIT MAXING OUT ENGINES ON ITS DRONES SO IT CAN FIT ON A WARHEAD OR TWO!!!!!!!
Re: >Fighters
/b][/i]
Well try to think of it this way, a single aircraft can launch and fire a missle (Harpoon / Exocet / SA17) that could easily sink an aircraft carrier.
Futuristic fighter I would expect to be able to do more damage...
Playing the stock AI is like kick puppies, yping cats tails together, and making mittens out of Badgers
Re: >Fighters
the pendullum could swing back either way.
the fighter can certainly deliver nasty ordnance - now or in the future -
of course the nastier ones like tomahawk, silkworms (if they get the accuracy up) or kingfishers are too big for a fighter to launch..
but the Backfire bomber that launchers kingfishers would in SE5 terms be a "fighter" (vechicle class, not purpose.. if you wanna get picky we can start calling fighters "system ships" like we did at MetaGaming in the 80's)... so the kf was a bad example...
and I myself just posted how huge these "Fighters" are.
Did you realize you're launching Battleships from your planets?
(the yamato, estimated 73kt loaded).
but that's off point...
what i was saying is that, without getting into a discussion of point-defense opposing our resident PD expert, that the ordnance can be deadly, sure - and may go the other way, too - offense and defense have swung back and forth and always will- but fighters are just out of control in Stock. fighter small weapons at 3, 5 kt often are as nasty as 30kt ship-size weapons.
Sure, getting there is the fighters strength - but the iowa can drop a volkswagon on you, if you let it get that close.
But its not even that - its a matetr of taste and preference - i just don't think fighters should obsolete everything else, regardless if that is more or less how it looks in the current naval situation.
Re: >Fighters/ gotta Catch 'em all.
by the way, PeekAtChu20/20
Is it true that all you PokeMon are, in fact, descended from
THE GREAT MOTHER OF ALL POKEMON;
HELLO KITTY Herself?
Where did i put that damn PokeBall?
Re: >Fighters
1. the fighter can certainly deliver nasty ordnance - now or in the future -
of course the nastier ones like tomahawk, silkworms (if they get the accuracy up) or kingfishers are too big for a fighter to launch..
but the Backfire bomber that launchers kingfishers would in SE5 terms be a "fighter" (vechicle class, not purpose.. if you wanna get picky we can start calling fighters "system ships" like we did at MetaGaming in the 80's)... so the kf was a bad example...
2. and I myself just posted how huge these "Fighters" are.
Did you realize you're launching Battleships from your planets?
(the yamato, estimated 73kt loaded).
but that's off point...
what i was saying is that, without getting into a discussion of point-defense opposing our resident PD expert, that the ordnance can be deadly, sure - and may go the other way, too - offense and defense have swung back and forth and always will- but fighters are just out of control in Stock. fighter small weapons at 3, 5 kt often are as nasty as 30kt ship-size weapons.
3. Sure, getting there is the fighters strength - but the iowa can drop a volkswagon on you, if you let it get that close.
4. But its not even that - its a matetr of taste and preference - i just don't think fighters should obsolete everything else,
1.
Or better yet label them fighter-bombers?
2.
Remember a single modern day yet can carry a warhead that could level a major city. (How's that for firepower?)
3.
22 miles is not close...
4.
regardless if that is more or less how it looks in the current naval situationIf point-defense worked as advertise fighters wouldn't be able to get through a properly laid out AA screen..
Re: Im very interested. Good
Seconded. Sounds like the mod community is on the job, but I'll have to hold off on buying SEV so long as the AI is so silly. (That, and a few other issues such as the asteroid field framerate hit.)
It's mostly due to scenarios like I encounter last night:
My research-oriented, ancient custom race was involved in a massive land grab when they came across their first encounter with alien life: the Amon'krie. The swine immediately began to initiate intelligence attacks against my largely espionage-defenseless empire. Arrogantly, they ignored my repeated attempts at treaties and demands to cease their spying.
I stayed up late into the night, cobbling together an intelligence network, and declaring the inevitable war. I rapidly assembled the necessary tech to combine fighter with anti-proton beam, a (perhaps too potent) combination. It was about 2am when I realized I was butchering a defenseless lamb. All that melodrama over nothing!
I guess SEV is a player versus player game until they get around to tweaking the AI to present some kind of threat. However,tracking down human opponents can be difficult, and besides: the demo doesn't have multiplayer play.
Re: Im very interested. Good
..very similar to how i felt when i got ready to face the Carriers i so feared...
it doesn't help that you hit on one of the two Nastiest weaknesses the AI has in early game - its inability to deal with fighters.
Everyone knows my patch to stock that makes the AI less helpless against fighters & missiles (Everyone thank Haven)
but I'm afraid that even that only helps if the AI puts the ships out there.
You can try to download IRM, that will help, but I'm not sure that will work on a demo.
My personal gripe with multiplayer is simultaneous turns don't allow tactical, which saddens me; and waiting for turns ... well ... maybe i'm a bit ADD.
Unfortunately, i think your points are still valid.
I mean, heck, even HelloKitty over there refers to fighting the AI as kicking puppies...
Re: Im very interested. Good
Interesting statement. - The mod community has done a lot to help improve the AI and the games diplomacy system is geared more to human players. But let me tell you the game is very deep and has a lot of potential.
Re: Im very interested. Good
We're in agreement that the potential is there. SEV would rank extremely high amongst games with me (I'd never sleep again) were it not for a few major issues: Gaps in AI, asteroid systems lagging me from 60 FPS to 3, skewed weapon tech balance.
Using a mod isn't really an option for me at this point because the demo version doesn't support mods. I'd either have to take a leap of faith or wait until the developers catch up.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
JUMP!!!!
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
Well, there's still a major problem that Aaron hasn't dealt with, and that's the AI's inability to cope with fog of war. As soon as something enters fog of war the AI will basically forget it's there( where as a human player will still remember it ). Turning on the 'All players see all systems' option helps the AI in this area, but that defeats the ( great, in my opinion ) fog of war feature.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
Actually it seems silly that races as advanced as the ones in the game with sats., sensors and all other sort of goodies, that fog of war even exisit. I mean really now, I visit a system then lose the view after I leave it.... I understand that you can't "see" everthing in every system, but you should within territory you already explored...
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
Being technologically advanced doesn't mean that you magically 'know' everything without utilizing some sort of device, though. And you do have the ability to drop off a 'spy satellite' or whatever.
Disappointed Again..
i thought a computer player had wiped those poor Xianti out...
and a fleet shows up in my next - to - home system
10 ship fleet.
all my goodies are away, this is going to be a rough and dirty fight boys.
Imagine my surprise when my "parthian-II" class fighter wing
(yeah, using the fighter-launched MISSILE (XO rack component) we all dsicussed a while back)...
flies up only to discover
the poor bastards don't have any supply.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
Another thing about the AI.
By the time I get 150 - 200k research points the AI still has 10-20k or even less.
This is very annoying and makes it not at all competative. This time around playing i'm not even as agressively researching Applied Reserach as well. I only have tech level 5 and I still have 140k to their next closest 30 on the balance mod.
Another thing, with migration. The AI doesn't "remove" populations that can't breath a planet's atmosphere when they have another pop that can on that planet. I try to get many migration treaties and usually can have pops in my empire that can breath around 3 different types so I get a lot of good planets with lots of facility space. The AI just leaves the population that can't breath there limiting their planet. Its quite stupid.
I, for one, when I have a non-breathable planet and get migrants that can breath just scrap the race on the planet that can't. If the AI could do that it would have a lot more facility space and therefore more research compounds.
edit: I usually have 3 to 4 times the population as the next AI as well, even if I have the same amount of planets as a result of this.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
There's not a built-in function for the AI to return if a population can breath the atmosphere or not, so no way to optimized planet space yet. That's perhaps one of the biggest stumbling block in getting the AI to match a player's production.
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Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
The AI designs starbases as colony ships.
I don't believe i've seen one built yet but i haven't gone looking for them.
.......................
I thunk therefore i wuz.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
I would like to point out the completely faulty attack routines of the AI... Everyone talks a lot about the AI´s lack of skill in complex situations, but it can´t handle even basic ones. C´mon, we are in 2006, it´s simply unconceivable that the AI of this game can´t match the likes of Warlords (and I´m talking about the 1st one!).
-Planet A of empire A is within sensor range of destroyer B of empire B.
-Empire B declares war on empire A.
-Destroyer B immediately attacks Planet A if it has a chance of winning.
Very simple huh? Well, that´s not waht happens im MY games! see my posts and you will know what I´m talking about. This is the norm, not an isolated situation.
The only reason why I still play the game is the effort I see people are putting on it... and the great potential the game has. When I first read the game would have real time combat, my first trought was "damn, they turned it in imperium galactica III..." To my surprise, combat, while not flawless, is excellent, the best of ANY 4x space game. The AI, however... took a HUGE step backwards. I simply don´t understand.
I recommend anyone to buy this game... but you should only take it out of the box in a month, at least. Unless you want to get frustrated.
Reply: bheusi
am i to understand there is no way to have tactiacl combat with other players?
if so... sort of defeats the point...
i like the combat, too -
but if the AI isn't up to snuff, and you can't do tactical against others...
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
The tactical combat is also used to resolve combat in MP. Which means its still an improvement from the SEIV system, which had some rather oddball combat situations..
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
i meant, can both players in a tactical combat actually control their units, e.g. Total War?
As far s i've been doing it, if its not your turn, your ships are just AI victims for the Turn player.
-Minister of Suicidal Tactics.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
Very simple huh? Well, that´s not waht happens im MY games! see my posts and you will know what I´m talking about. This is the norm, not an isolated situation.
The reason for this is that the AI in stock does not have an attack routine for non-fleeted ships.
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Re: Fascinating!
And I'm not being facetious...
i really have been VEXed by the way the "straggler" ships the AI ends up with (that is a WHOLE 'nother question) - seem
to well, do nothing.
i asked for the sentry/maraud setting originally becasue of that -
the AI ships creeping about -wasting opportunities.
Did i mention one was a BATTLESHIP?
It was a little worrisome to see a BB i forgot ALL about come out of a neglected warp point..
..think, OH, THAT mistake's going to cost you...
and it goes by, no nothing.
I guess even "blockading" a planet would have required an attack...
so that's why i survived?
I HATE CHEESE WINS!
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
A wins a win... I could less if th enemy runs out of ammo or uses his ships ineffectivily.... A win is a win. I think I'll give myself ~alltech~ and kick some Badgers
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
The reason for this is that the AI in stock does not have an attack routine for non-fleeted ships.
Thanks for the info captain. This problem aplies to fighter groups too, however; they should scramble to attack targets of opportunity. Is it going to be fixed? By the way, what´s the status of the next patch?
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
The stock AI is set to 90% of its attack ships to fleets, so most of the time it doesn't have much in the way of lone ships. The Balance Mod AI encourages lone ships to attack depending on the target strength and sometimes whether or not it is an aggressive race. I hoping to extend this routine for fighter groups - at least for defensive locations.
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Next patch will probably be in March.
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Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
So that explain why fleet vs fleet work well in my mod but a fleeing ship can draw the whole fleet into a silly chase...
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
I wish there was possible to change strategy during combat (and put it on condition).
Eg. make ship with Optimal firing range and withconditioned strategies:
IF shields down (to eg 33%) SWITCH TO Don't get hurt
IF shields full SWITCH TO Optimal range
Such ship would attack, few times hit, so it would try to get out of fight, strenghten shields and go into fray again.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
okay: IF you are handy in the scripts, you can change these conditions once and for all, but you are right, not in combat.
The kind of conditional changes you speak of -
thats a great idea, a little steep on the learning curve but, hey, thats the point right, as you get better, you get BETTER.
Why not make that feature a formal suggestion? I'm sure the bugs will have to get ironed out before more features are added, but, heck, can't hurt.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
just out of curiousity, did you-Kwok- have an opinion on the independent ships go to ai(out of C&C)/maraud(sentry+) setting/zone of control setting?
lastly - you mentioned attack ships-
I am not seeing the AI (stock) use defense ships - is that fairly standard?
i am thinking i can convince it to turn "gunships" into its defense ships- which works since those can't bombard
and its heavy weapon ships (missile ships, if i read the script right), into its attack ships - so it can still bombard when its grouchy.
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
it might be a single ship fleet and going on what the good captain says probably is or its a single ship which blunders into yours blind at a warp point. This being the only way you can enter a sector containing enamy ships without attacking
Re: Interesting AI discoveries... Part1 + Part 2
vaguely relatedly,
to the AI habit of sending "stragglers" -
the AI's habit of sending unescorted colony ships into...
compromising situations.
Last night ( i switched back to my original empire again, leaving your Poor kzins to the tender mercy of the AI - you poor bastards) - I watched a Phong Colonyship blissfully whiz by a colony of mine - warships and TROOP TRANSPORT staring in awe...
Moments later, the Marines Templar sceured another bastion against the great corruption...
Re: Interesting AI discoveries...> hooray for the Xianti!
In the ol' game i've been playing for what seems forever, and revisit occaisionally as a testing ground for stock
The XIANTI finally used a temporal weapon on me!
The temporal shield-eater thingie?
AND it had weapon mounts!
now keep in mind i think this was a level 2 or 3 weapon, while everyone else in the glaxy is at level 10 or better APB
and that ship lasted a hot split second- but it WAS outnumbered.
Poor AI, sending stragglers into heavily-fortifed systems..
Drunk BUmbling.. Sigh.
What actually impressed me more was it FIRED AN AM TORPEDO at me!
I was INCREDIBLY IMPRESSED!
oh -OH!
and one of the races - Phong? somebody, had the toolfoom tenacity to come through a warp point - straggler again -
and fire a CRYSTAL TORPEDO at me!
A Racial weapon! COOL!
On the other hand, I haven't seen a single ship - other than carriers - larger than a CL...
I AM finally seeing some I MEAN BUSINESS FLEETS, so finally I am seeing SOME of the not-absolutely-retarded-AI features I heard about
- wish me luck, boys, I'm going back in.
Im very interested. Good
Im very interested. Good observations. These issues need to be addressed b4 I pick the game off the shelf to play. No sense in playing if the enemy isnt using fighters or building tanks to invade... And sure isnt fun if they arnt upgrading their ships, or when cant scrap them and build bigger ones.
I think kwok was working on updated AI. I hope he sees this thread.