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Accueil » news » forums » Space Empires V » Space Empires V General

Killing Dreadnaughts without Loss

Soumis par Omnius le Mer, 2007-01-10 11:08 Space Empires V General

In my latest 1.20 game I've noticed how poor the AI targeting is. I started with all techs and hard max bonus AI's. I found one AI that had some tough Dreadnaughts that were a match for my ships. I found it had formed a 49 Dreadnaught fleet and was rampaging around with no particular plan in mind. I saw it enter and then reemerge from a black hole system to attack a warp point that it had seen me cover with a recon frigate. With scanners I was able to see what it was up to and made sure that I had 2 fleets with 48 ships and 192 fighters waiting for it. It chickened out rather than attack. At the same time I was clearing out one of it's systems with a fleet. Sure enough the next turn the AI fleet is hauling butt to kill my fleet in it's system, 2 systems away and through the black hole again.

Meanwhile I decide to make a warp point creator and I created a warp point to the AI's home system which I sent my 2 fleets through. I sent my targetted fleet off to recharge and left a recon frigate to watch the wayward AI fleet emerge to find nothing to fight or protect. About the turn that wayward AI fleet shows up I was just finished trashing it's home system.

I noticed that that 49 Dreadnaught fleet had got another mission but it only had 28 Dreadnaughts left. It lost 21 due to resource shortage. The next turn the other 28 died off. What didn't die off were some stupid worthless Heavy Carriers in one system it had left. I also noticed this lameness with another AI that trashed it's Dreadnaught before the Heavy Carriers when it ran real short on resources.

AI's need to do better at protecting their systems with real warships instead of worthless carriers. The AI's also need to re-examine their attack plans each turn to keep abreast of current info and to react to local opportunities it always misses. Attacking a fleet 2 systems away is really dumb because fleets move. Not to mention it needs to not see carriers as the best ships to build or retain.
Omnius

‹ mega evil empire 1.17 Bugs and Issues ›
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Couple of comments

Soumis par Captain Kwok le Mer, 2007-01-10 11:32

A distance condition is easy enough to add in the fleet's attack function - probably best to cap the distance to 15-25 hexes.

Ships are randomly chosen by whatever hard-coded function that is used for lack of resources. The scrap function in v1.20 does not work or a script provision could be made to scrap other types ahead of a resource shortage.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

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Attack distance would more

Soumis par Nevyn le Mer, 2007-01-10 21:51

Attack distance would more depend on the ship/fleet move speed I'd think, but yea, that sounds a sensibleish range anyway.

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One Turn's Movement

Soumis par Omnius le Jeu, 2007-01-11 10:00

I think the AI targeting of ships and fleets ought to be one turn's movement. If it can't reach the target in one turn then it shouldn't target it because it's likely to move. Colonies that don't move could be targeted multiple systems away. What I'd like to see is an AI fleet work it's way through a system in one fell swoop, not trash a colony and then go to some other system before finishing the job.

The AI also needs to do a better job of recon by making recon frigates to snoop out the enemy positions. Once it finds a good system to attack then send out the fleet to destroy the colonies. Easier to have an AI target colonies and force the human to defend them with his fleets than try to attack the fleets while leaving the colonies alone.

Ships are not chosen randomly for scrapping due to lack of resources. I have seen enough examples to see that Dreadnaughts get trashed before Carriers. I never saw a Carrier get trashed due to lack of resources until they were the only ships left.
Omnius

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Improving AI Fleet Movement

Soumis par Captain Kwok le Jeu, 2007-01-11 10:41

It should be slightly more than one turn's movement in a simultaneous game since it should consider the possibility that the enemy target is moving towards the fleet. For sequential, like you said it should depend on the target type. Having a distance provision should always pick the closest target first, so that should avoid having the AI break off an attack to go elsewhere.

Recon frigates would also be helpful to keep attack locations in sight. The AI builds its attack locations each turn and enemy targets that are not in sight get forgotten.

Perhaps resource scrapping is done by maintenance cost then - can you confirm? The other option would be ship id, but that doesn't seem likely based on your description.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

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Possible scrapping thought

Soumis par Psieye le Jeu, 2007-01-11 11:19

My instinctive thought would be "it doesn't scrap its carriers because they have cargo in them" but... has the AI figured out how to load fighters on its carriers? I've been too busy to have direct experience of SE V these last few weeks.

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AI and fighters

Soumis par evilginger le Jeu, 2007-01-11 15:32

The AI does know how to load fighters on to carriers the problem is that it dosent build them. So they are not avalible to load on to the cariers

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Improving Fleet Movement

Soumis par Omnius le Ven, 2007-01-12 10:20

Captain Kwok wrote:
It should be slightly more than one turn's movement in a simultaneous game since it should consider the possibility that the enemy target is moving towards the fleet. For sequential, like you said it should depend on the target type. Having a distance provision should always pick the closest target first, so that should avoid having the AI break off an attack to go elsewhere.

Recon frigates would also be helpful to keep attack locations in sight. The AI builds its attack locations each turn and enemy targets that are not in sight get forgotten.

Perhaps resource scrapping is done by maintenance cost then - can you confirm? The other option would be ship id, but that doesn't seem likely based on your description.

Captain Kwok,
For the Quadrant level the AI should never, ever target a fleet or ship more than one turn's movement because ships and fleets move and even in simultaneous movement there's very little chance of those ships or fleets meeting and greeting during movement. What's needed in simultaneous movement is to target a ship or fleet and as it moves the target location gets updated and the attacking ship or fleet alters it's movement to intercept the moving ship or fleet. What would be totally awesome would be WEGO movement instead of the boring IGO-UGO movement currently used.

Yep in battle mode I think proximity is undervalued. Makes fighters more powerful than they should be if they're never targeted. I'm looking at the Rules of Engagement next to see if I can make that work better for me so my ships shoot at the closest and possibly the smallest first. One snafu I noticed in the current default targeting is that colony ships will turn and fight when fighters are launched when they normally always run for the border.

The other problem with the current RoE is that a lone ship will make a suicide run against a whole fleet if it isn't set to "don't get hurt". It's really stupid to watch a lone ship go down in suicidal flames against a huge fleet when in reality it would run like a bat out of heck.

Scrapping due to resource shortage must be based upon build cost or maintenance cost. I'll have to sneak a look at an AI and see what the costs are for it's ships so I get a better idea of why it scraps Dreanaughts before Heavy Carriers. But I watched this happen enough to see a bad pattern that needs to be fixed so that Heavy carriers get scrapped before a useful Dreanaught, especially if the HC is empty.
Omnius

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Attack Seek Order in Simultaneous

Soumis par Captain Kwok le Ven, 2007-01-12 12:58

Omnius, what you describe already exists as the attack seek order in simultaneous.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

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ai and fighters

Soumis par Badger le Jeu, 2007-01-18 15:39

i noticed your comment AFTER my post

if it did as bad at fighters as it does at drones, its ahrdly a disadvantage that it doesnt build fighters...

sigh...

Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...

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unit Intelligence

Soumis par Badger le Jeu, 2007-01-18 15:42

the only actions i've seen a ship take in se5 are charge blindly or run like hell.

In short, the tactical battle AI is my biggest disappointment IN se5

Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...

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Mod Designer

Strategies

Soumis par Phoenix-D le Ven, 2007-01-19 16:33

Ship actions are defined by their strategies, which are set ahead of time. The stock AI just uses Optimal Firing Range, so all their ships behave the same.

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