Balace Mod for Stock SEV Petition

If Aaron wanted to include Kwok's Balance Mod -with- the standard game, as say, an example modification, that would be fine.

But I think it's important to realise that Kwok's mod is a change as much as it's a balance tweak. Mainly with regards to research, so I'll use that as an example. I really like SEV's approach to research; it contains many levels, long but constant progression, so much so you can even get things like game-long arms races between cloaking tech and sensor tech. I really enjoy SEV's style of research.

In Kwok's mod, the tech levels are reduced; it's more like it was tweaked to be specifically more like SEIV. And while I did love SEIV, I don't want SEV to neccesarily be as much like SEIV as possible. I think that's counterproductive. The new research system wasn't broken as a concept, afterall, and it certainly doesn't need to be scrapped.

People are sure to disagree there, particularly if they thought SEIV's system was awesome but I think that might just be more reason to include the balance mod as a mod with the stock game, if it's truely so popular.

I'm sure there are other examples of where things seem to be changed for taste rather than actual balance, but the tech one was the example I noticed immediately once I installed the mod.

it's very difficult to balance with 100 tech levels.
for example with weapon damage increase.
if you keep increasing the damage of the weapons, the ships no longer take more than a shot or two before they die.

ok.. so you can increase the shields...
but once the shields are gone, it only takes on shot to kill the ship, so it's all or nothing fights, forget trying to repair ships, since half damaged ships do not exist.

you could increase the structure points of components as you level up...
but what do you do with components that only have half a doezen levels anyway? (such as bridge, master computer, SM components, etc. etc.)

it is far far far easyer for balance to have less levels, (and to by honest, in a multiplayer game, you're not likely to get to reserch them all anyway).

On the other hand, I DO see your point, but, I would FAR rather see a balanced game with less levels, than the crap we have for stock now. I'd rather leave the many levels thing for PVK and a propertions mod.

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an se5a is a ww1 fighter, it is also a car.

I have played both version quite extensively, well as much as I can since release and, to be honest, I like both. I like the tech levels in stock vs balance as well, there are other things I prefer in stock, but there is a lot I like about the balance mod, like the way weapons and engines are outer hull only. Or the way engines calculate speed. So I would say as an addon, an example of the great things that can be done, but not as the default game. That is just my personal opinion.

Yours in gaming,
~Elucidus

gary49

I fully agree with Terpoma. To my point of view both version are fine and offer a different game experience.

The balance mod may be included as an official mod (it would be a good thing for wanabe modders to have an example to work on) but it shouldn’t replace the stock version.

One of the things which annoys me in games like Space empires is a finite tech tree. The balance Mod though I have not played it yet seems to me a good idea but I wouldn’t want not to have the choice or to have to rely on a mod to give me a game like stock is at present.

I like to play long single player games where my main emphasis is no research and yes you do get battles where a new empire jumps your scout frigate with a dozen attack frigates and your lone scout turns and reduces them to space dust at the cost of a few percentage points shaved off its shields. You also get wars which run like the Earth Mimbari war from Babylon 5 but with a high difficulty setting and a long game you cant tell if you are going to be Earth force or the Mimbari in that one. I think the balance Mod is better for shorter multiplayer games. The game I am playing at the present is in 2506 and I have been at war with my main rival for about ten years since they shot up one of my scouts at a warp point the war has raged across four systems and is great fun as I am generally technologically more capable but they have apparently a bigger resource base judging by the size of the fleets I keep fighting. There is no sign of either of us winning for quite some time yet indeed I am looking to start a second front and have cloaked long range scouts out looking for a back way into there area

I don't like the very limited upgrade concept. You just race through the tech tree real fast and it reduce the flavor of each race as they all end up at the same level in everything. Of course i think having 100 level in every weapons is a bit exessive, especially since you can mount them and that ships internals don't get any thougher. It's also a shame that planets are so easy to raze, even quite early in the game that using the bombardment devices are not even nessessary...

One fix i can see to the tech tree we have right now is to tie componments with each others so that to raise tech of one device you need a certain level in another, like with the point defense tech. I also think structural integrity of ships should raise along the armor tech so that ships don't die right after the armor failed...

The Balance Mod should not replace the stock version. I did not install the BM because it messes with the research tree, and I like the way it is.

I have no problem if the BM will be added as an Official Mod, but it should not replace the stock version.

Honestly, I think it's too late for the Balance Mod to replace stock. It really had to be done before SE:V was released. To supplant stock at this point would be unfair to players who like stock, as they would no longer see there version of the game supported. Right now, the Balance Mod is easily available for anyone that wishes to play a different game and as such, both Stock and Balance Mod versions continue to be supported. I think at this point it would probably be best to include the Balance Mod with SE:V as an optional game type. I don't see any advantge on a community level to do otherwise.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod | Space Food Empires!

Huh, I really quite like the "stock" game, yes its buggy and yes their are more than a few AI issues, but that doesn't affect the stock data.

I have looked at the balance mod and ain't sure about it, I like some of the simplifications that have been made around the tech tree but some of the other bits leave me cold.

Whilst I would whole heartedly support the addition of the balance mod to the game release, as an alternative game system I wonder on the negative impact of this. Releasing patches would take longer as the "finished" game patch would have to be delivered to Kwok 1st for him to update his mod and make sure everything worked before passing the pack back with his patch as well before the patch could be released to us.

To anyone who is going to play mods (as I have for SE IV and will for SE V) its really quite simple to go online and find them. If someone wants to develope their own mod using the BM for its base then its really simple, they simply do and release it including the BM (after asking the kind Mr Kwok for his permission and giving due credit to him in the release).

I just wish people would stop bitching and whinning so much, anyone with the slightest famaliarity with SE IV or any of the other of these games ought to know that this game ain't really gonna be playable until its patched into the 20's and ain't gonna be as good as SE IV is until it gets into the 40's probably. *SIGH*

I really enjoy the depth of stock SE:V. That said, i also really enjoy the mods for SE:V-BM. I think one of the things that really needs to happen is for someone to mod the AI of the stock game to play better. From there give THAT to Aaron. Alot of people like the data and the flow of stock, but there are the annoying problems of the AI really playing poorly. These are the things that need work and really need to be given to Aaron to fix up.

My vote would be to include the latest version of Balance Mod in the game types as a defacto standard that gets upgraded when patches come out. You know, in a week when we suspect another patch, have Aaron grab the latest version from the kwok page and zip it up with it. Leave it avialable online for kwok to patch seperately but with each release include the latest version to patch up.

Then on top of that, and yes i volunteer myself as well, have people work on the stock AI to make it playable and challenging.

Dragagon

Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.

-- Robert Heinlein

I see the point Raapys made - but I think everyone (not just 90%) could be better served if the Balance Mod was just included as a game type with SE:V itself - either through a future patch or expansion.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

If you want, i can also help look over the AI and solve any potential bugs that it has. Just a thought. In the mean time, i would love to see the latest version of Balance Mod at the very least added to the patches that are sent out.

Dragagon

Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.

-- Robert Heinlein

I like the changes to the AI which are ahead off the stock version but it will catch up but I very much prefer the long game that the stock game gives and indeed I would be inclined to say the depth of the stock game is its greatest strength.

Ah, but according to the mantra that is sung here time and again MM is a one man show. So, he does not need any Balance Mod, but only more time to fix the issues.

My suggestion is to write to him and let him know what is going on and your suggestion, as this too seems to be the party line that is taken so very often. After all he has no time or desire to read the forums.

…now the real post!

This post is a bit frustrating in that it clearly shows a lack in the programming of the game and yet everyone dances around it but no one comes out and says it.
I think it is time MM thought seriously about adding more people into the mix of making SE games in the future.

Faithful,

I've said time and again that MM needed someone else to the documentation/balancing portion of the game. There's not enough time to proprely program and document/balance in the time frames Aaron works with.

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Regarding depth and the Balance Mod:
At 200,000 research per turn, it'd still take 371 turns at medium tech cost to research 50% of the tech tree.

A high cost tech game should really extend the pace of research though if you prefer that.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

Captain Kwok wrote:

Regarding depth and the Balance Mod: At 200,000 research per turn, it'd still take 371 turns at medium tech cost to research 50% of the tech tree.

A high cost tech game should really extend the pace of research though if you prefer that.

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But this seriously limit the improvement aspect of the tech tree. Since everything is limited to a few level, there isn't much difference between players who use the same techs on their designs. This is one aspect of SE5 i don't want to loose...

I think Captain Kwok has the right idea.

Actually, I would like to see several official and supported mods as being part of the official game.

So you would have a 'stock' game.

You might have a BM mod with a shorter tech tree (and other changes)

Maybe two or three other mods that also change things - say a focus on carrier operations or other major changes like we saw with SEIV.

The idea is, include a few extra flavors (official and supported) with the base game. Too bad it couldn't have shipped with that. I'm sure that kind of varied play support (in box) would have kept more people playing longer.

YMMV,
Chad

Here's a new perspective to this dicussion,I stayed away from SEV based on the very poor early reviews. It was only after seeing a few short reviews on the updated game that I decided to buy the game. The review that changed my mind (cant remember where I read it) said basically "patched, the game is playeble, its even better with the Ballance Mod and/or Unamed's AI mod". SO hearing that I bought the game and immediately loaded BM. It was the first time I ever modded a game and it took some deciding to work up the gumption to try a mod. Snigger if you like, but the average player mods nothing. Kwok's notion that the BM could be included as a game type is therefore a valoid one. If I was told that the BM was packaged as a game type, I would have made a much quicker decision to give SEV a try. BTW, I'm very happy I did, I love the game.

My friend bought SEV and played it, but it wasn't until he downloaded Balance Mod that he really started to load praise on it. From his description then I decided to buy the game and I've never played a game without Balance Mod. So I can say from my perspective that Balance Mod would make a perfectly fine stock.

I think I'm going to sign the petition, not because I want to screw the stock players out of their game but just to express my feeling that it's not right to sell a game in a box without balancing it first.

P.S. I was going to kvetch about the giant typo in the header of the thread. But then I scrolled up, saw that the OP's username is "Combat Wombat," and forgave everything. That is so cute.

P.P.S. I signed the petition before posting and noticed that this is an ancient, ancient thread. But what the heck.

I don't see anything wrong with including Balance Mod as an 'official' mod, but I also don't want stock replaced. It's too late for that.

I think Unnamed and FQM should also be considered official mods, and perhaps IRM, too, but that hasn't been updated recently...

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Space for rent - please contact owner

I Grant that but its a valid time to resurect it as the AI in the three major mods is much beter than straight stock. I like Unnameds AI mod as I like the stock game for solo games. I aprechiate Kwocks work even if I regret his fore shortening of the tech tree I agree its a good mod and does wonders for the game. As dose the IRM which though a bit quiet I would love to see finished and I am indeed having a go at standing on FH's & Bmax's shoulders and up dating it to 1.44

I dont think however the BM should become the new stock as the origional poster sugests

Kwok!!!! stop bloging and finsh BM v1.09. You are wasting time. I need that mod. Hopeful before i get home. you do great work (modding). If MM are going to pay you for the Balance Mod then I'm for including it in the offical SEV if not well i wish there was away to donate BM cause. Thanks and I'm still waiting.........

Kwok has a blog? Where is it? Would love to learn more about the man behind the mod.

I don't do any blogs.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

My biggest surprise with the tech tree was the linearity of the increase in cost for each level in research points. Normally you'd expect the cost increase to go up exponentially, rather than linearly. eg. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 and so on. After all, you're trying to squeeze more and more technology into the same space.

Once you reach a certain research base, you can very cheaply zoom up the levels by concentrating on a particular tech.

The increase in resources per level is also very small, making it very cheap to USE the tech after researching it.

I like the high number of levels, I just think it should cost more to get and use the higher levels.

P.S. I'd also like a miniaturizing tech like you had in MOO so you can fit more guns on your ship. I hate seeing all those empty slots. Maybe a small weapon mount for ships.