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Home » news » forums » Space Empires V » Space Empires V General

Are fighters too overpowered???

Submitted by DimmurWyrd on Wed, 2006-10-25 02:42. Space Empires V General

Or is the AI just too stupid to defend against them well?

I have a nice little starbase on the warp point inside the enemies system (am I nice or what?) it has 22 fighter bays and around 240 fighters (medium) (also has 115K supply storage and 15k or so ordnance with 1500 supply generation and 1000 ordnance generation roughly)

Enemy attacks me with 5 dreadnaughts and I'm like uh oh! well turns out I had NOTHING to worry about... my first wave of fighters wiped out all 5 within 3 seconds even before my second wave arrived :/ I lost exactly ONE fighter and had another damaged around 30%

This seems a little insane to me but what the heck it was a riot.

I think the depleted neutronium guns for fighters are just too potent (40 or so damage at a fairly low level) and that's very close to half the damage of the full sized version (before mounts) the same level of anti-proton for fighters does only around 15 damage at that level... not only that it's 2/3rds again the size?

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Hard to say if they are

Submitted by Mus76 on Wed, 2006-10-25 04:12.

Hard to say if they are overpowered. Someone posted that Point defense weapons seemed to be only shooting once per weapon cycle (depends on type) no matter how many weapons are mounted. If thats the case, I havent tested to confirm that bug, PD is just broken right now and thats the real problem.

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Weapon target

Submitted by Rasit on Wed, 2006-10-25 05:14.

I have noticed that all my weapons like to fire on the same target, perhaps thats what happens?

For example;
Fighter 1 of 50 comes into range of the point defense, every point defense weapon fire on that one fighter with enought firepower to kill it 20 times over. In the meantime the remaining 49 fighters attacks and soon kills the enemy ship.

If that is what happens then it would take 50 reloads before all the fighters are dead, no matter if you had 100 point defense weapons or 10.

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Mod Designer

Kwok, see what the boss thinks of this.

Submitted by LordHavoc on Wed, 2006-10-25 06:49.

Aye, that's a pet peeve of mine also.
I would handle this by having a PD threshold in one of the .txt files. So that any single target cant have any more guns on it that the specified threshold. Default it to say 10. So that a single target can't have more than 10 PD guns targetting it at anyone time.

Your lord and master (below Foamy) LordHavoc

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Hmmm, if that's the case I

Submitted by DimmurWyrd on Wed, 2006-10-25 06:56.

Hmmm, if that's the case I do hope it gets fixed in a patch... kinda takes some of the fun out of things hehe.

On a side note... Is there any point to troops ON a planet? I noticed I can build so many troops and fit so many on a single carrier (small freighter 371 large troops) that I don't think anyone could store enough on a planet to really defend against them... (aside from the make pop happy pittance of course)

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Resistance?

Submitted by antirelic on Wed, 2006-10-25 07:06.

DimmurWyrd wrote:
Hmmm, if that's the case I do hope it gets fixed in a patch... kinda takes some of the fun out of things hehe.

On a side note... Is there any point to troops ON a planet? I noticed I can build so many troops and fit so many on a single carrier (small freighter 371 large troops) that I don't think anyone could store enough on a planet to really defend against them... (aside from the make pop happy pittance of course)

I dont understand. I put troops on my planet to resist enemy troops from capturing it...

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Troops make your people happy which gives increased production

Submitted by raynor on Wed, 2006-10-25 21:43.

The #1 reason to put troops on every planet is to make your people happy. Over time, troops on a planet will raise their attitude to Jubilant, and you'll get a nice production bonus. That alone makes it quite worthwhile to put troops on every planet.

As far as protection against the AI capturing your planet, I think I would agree with you that you can probably send a lot more troops than you could fit on any planet other than maybe a large or huge (undomed of course) planet.

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Didn't realize troops made

Submitted by Elucidus on Wed, 2006-10-25 21:54.

Didn't realize troops made the planet happy, what are the numbers? What is a good a good ration or number of troops to put on a planet?

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PD can be programmed to work automatically

Submitted by Zeta Reticuli on Wed, 2006-10-25 23:38.

LordHavoc wrote:
I would handle this by having a PD threshold in one of the .txt files. So that any single target cant have any more guns on it that the specified threshold. Default it to say 10. So that a single target can't have more than 10 PD guns targetting it at anyone time.
Why not just make it so the PD shoots at the nearest target until its dead, then moves to the next? Sort of how it worked in SEIV. Except recall that there the whole combat system sort of "paused" while each PD gun fired in succession, which might not look so cool in the updated real-time system. The developer may have to change the damage calculation routine a little to make it decide how much damage (or kill) a each PD weapon shot will do on its respective target before any of them even fire, then they could still fire simultaneously as needed. But its not like missiles or fighters have any active defense against PD, so the battles could still be suitably cinematic as if the damage doesn't occur until the actual projectile impact. the developer just needs to put a little thought into it.

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Rilbur's picture

Oh really?

Submitted by Rilbur on Wed, 2006-10-25 23:56.

Zeta Reticuli wrote:
But its not like missiles or fighters have any active defense against PD

Oh they don't? And what about the counter-PD I'm putting on my units in my mod? (since I"m using seeker-based "countermisiles" as the main PD, the "missiles" (drones) can and do fire back at the incoming counterfire (depending ont he missile type chosen).

There are 10 types of people in the world:

Those that understand binary, and those that don't.

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Ugh

Submitted by Zeta Reticuli on Thu, 2006-10-26 10:00.

You should probably wait until PD is fixed to actually work a little before you make a mod that makes it even more ineffective.

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Quote:Why not just make it

Submitted by tmcc on Thu, 2006-10-26 10:22.

Quote:
Why not just make it so the PD shoots at the nearest target until its dead, then moves to the next? Sort of how it worked in SEIV

Actually I thinks it's supposed to work just like SE-III, where targets were assigned and then combat executes. I also think that the targeting algorithm is broken. It should aply firepower to a target based on a percent of overkill desired. The default is set to 150%, meaning that only enough PDs should fire at a given missile to do 150% of the damage necessary to destroy it. I am guessing that this works but that the ability to track how much has been allocated to a target is what is broken. This would resulting in firing 150% at the first missile the PDs see, then looking and saying hey that missile is still there but not realizing that rounds are on the way and shooting again, and again, etc. Interestingly if you target manually in combat that screen does not tell which of your weapons have already been assigned to targets, supporting the theory that the targeting routine doesn't know.

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Rilbur's picture

An example only....

Submitted by Rilbur on Thu, 2006-10-26 10:23.

Zeta Reticuli wrote:
You should probably wait until PD is fixed to actually work a little before you make a mod that makes it even more ineffective.

Its probably worth mentioning that I'm not actually going to add in the counter-counter PD stuff untill PD is fixed Laughing out loud (edit: And I'm counting on MM to get a patch out before my mod is done!)

Though, actually, from what I've seen missiles don't seem to be broken, only targeting fighters is. So drones may be broken too, I'll have to test as I go.

There are 10 types of people in the world:

Those that understand binary, and those that don't.

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Mod Designer

I've emailed a very

Submitted by LordHavoc on Thu, 2006-10-26 16:29.

I've emailed a very plausable solution to MM on how to tackle the multi targetting issue. However he decided to tackle it however, he'll do it!

Your lord and master (below Foamy) LordHavoc

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No unit maintenance in SEIV

Submitted by raynor on Sat, 2006-10-28 15:57.

In Space Empires IV, you didn't pay any unit maintenance costs on fighters, satellites, mines or troops. In Space Empires V, you pay maintenance costs on at least fighters and mines. I assume you pay maintenance for satellites. I don't know about troops. In SEIV, fighters against the AI were pretty over-powered. I found the TDM ModPack empires had been designed to research Point Defense Cannons much earlier than the stock races. But you could still use fighters to good advantage if you launched them into space in large groups and then sent the fighter group into combat against the AI ships. (In other words, send 100 fighters at once instead of 10 fighters in 10 waves from a carrier.)

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well actually

Submitted by DimmurWyrd on Sun, 2006-10-29 10:41.

raynor wrote:
In Space Empires IV, you didn't pay any unit maintenance costs on fighters, satellites, mines or troops. In Space Empires V, you pay maintenance costs on at least fighters and mines. I assume you pay maintenance for satellites. I don't know about troops. In SEIV, fighters against the AI were pretty over-powered. I found the TDM ModPack empires had been designed to research Point Defense Cannons much earlier than the stock races. But you could still use fighters to good advantage if you launched them into space in large groups and then sent the fighter group into combat against the AI ships. (In other words, send 100 fighters at once instead of 10 fighters in 10 waves from a carrier.)

actually EVERYTHING in SE:V has a maintenance cost including planetary facilities Eye-wink

and I learned the main reason fighters are overpowered in SE:V is that PD is borked AND AI rarely uses it in any case so yah one main gun shot will nuke the hardest fighter but then the fighter gets lots of return shots Eye-wink not to mention there is a massive penalty to hit a fighter with main guns and many types of main gun can't target fighters at all...

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Mod Designer

Weigh things up

Submitted by LordHavoc on Sun, 2006-10-29 10:59.

Weigh things up cost-for-cost. Just to test things, I started up a stock game of SEIV and researched my way up to lvl 1 fighter. A single fighter costs around 320 in minerals. 10 would be 3200 and 100 would be 32000.

A single ship worth 32000 in minerals is going to be something along the lines of two dreadnaughts. Now do the math, 2 dreadnaughts can easily waste 1 (equal tech).

So of course 100 fighters can kill 1 ship, AI does'nt come into it. And lets not forget the natural defence and offense bonus that fighters get because of their small size.

What I'm trying to say is a single vessel isn't going to stand much of a chance against 100 fighters, regardless of whether it is AI controlled or not.

Your lord and master (below Foamy) LordHavoc

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Pocus's picture

SD broken, another major bug

Submitted by Pocus on Sun, 2006-10-29 14:52.

Whay do I get the impression that the wisest rule of conduct would be to put on hold SE5 until the dev finishes its work? Sad

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actually

Submitted by DimmurWyrd on Sun, 2006-10-29 18:57.

LordHavoc wrote:
Weigh things up cost-for-cost. Just to test things, I started up a stock game of SEIV and researched my way up to lvl 1 fighter. A single fighter costs around 320 in minerals. 10 would be 3200 and 100 would be 32000.

A single ship worth 32000 in minerals is going to be something along the lines of two dreadnaughts. Now do the math, 2 dreadnaughts can easily waste 1 (equal tech).

So of course 100 fighters can kill 1 ship, AI does'nt come into it. And lets not forget the natural defence and offense bonus that fighters get because of their small size.

What I'm trying to say is a single vessel isn't going to stand much of a chance against 100 fighters, regardless of whether it is AI controlled or not.

Your lord and master (below Foamy) LordHavoc

10 fighters can take down a dread as things now stand.

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