Home Crush your enemies... and create an EMPIRE!!! Space Empires V -- BUY NOW!!!

User login

  • Create new account
  • Request new password

Navigation

  • news
    • archive
    • blogs
    • books
    • forums
    • recent posts
    • groups
  • image galleries
  • projects & downloads
  • search
  • create content
  • news aggregator

Search

Who's online

There are currently 1 user and 139 guests online.

Online users

  • GambitUK

Languages

  • English English
  • French French

Browse archives

« August 2008  
Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su
        1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31
Home » news » forums » Space Empires V » Space Empires V General

how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by plasticpanzers on Wed, 2008-06-11 13:21. Space Empires V General

although i love the way the balance mod works i deeply dislike the way ship sizes have been altered. crusiers and battleships are far less
powerful than they should be due to constrants in size that in my mind naval wise should not exist. I miss the ability to make the larger
"battle" class destroyer leaders and the ability to make battlecrusiers
from the larger crusier sizes. is their a way to alter the ship
size back to the original game without the loss of the AI improvement
and other goodies in the balance mods? thanks!
Tim

‹ Simple Quality-of-Life suggestions [SE5 v1.74] about the use of weapons.... ›
» login or register to post comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Captain Kwok's picture
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Captain Kwok on Wed, 2008-06-11 15:22.

Don't be mislead by absolute size in kT. The bigger ships are actually proportionally larger than smaller ships in the Balance Mod. For example, in stock, a Battleship hull is only 270% larger than a Frigate, while in the Balance Mod it's 333% larger. A Cruiser is 250% larger in the Balance Mod than the Frigate, while only 210% larger in stock.

I should note though that the Dreadnought did get a boost in size for the v1.15 update, coming out shortly.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

» login or register to post comments
benc's picture

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by benc on Wed, 2008-06-11 15:56.

excuse me, but i can't see formidable difference between 270% and 333%... 250% and 210%

in comparison with full size:

(333-270)/333=0.19 and (250-210)/250=0.16

just 19% and 16% of difference between stock and balance
am i wrong?

» login or register to post comments
BlueTemplar's picture

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by BlueTemplar on Wed, 2008-06-11 17:40.

And did you count that in BM bigger ships need more engines?

» login or register to post comments

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by plasticpanzers on Wed, 2008-06-11 18:07.

size it eaten up by engines and crew compartments and such. in the
newer mods larger is not alot more powerful. light crusiers are seldom more powerful than destroyers (perhaps 2 weapons instead of one). battleships are eaten up by other items that reduce their firepower and usage. The mod is slanted for small ships and fighters in lieu of battlelines boxing it out. Scifi books using
naval history as a basis fall into mostly "top gun" although the
White/Weber books follow a modified surface naval system. Part of the real joy of the original SEV is building various ships sizes. No
more "heavy" destroyers or battlecrusiers. It has regressed into
some earlier space games where you had a very limited sizes of ships
to work with. One other point is that ordinance should be the higher cost of firing missles with supplies less. Your missiles take up space and firing them off uses up your ordinance. It is unlikely that supplies would be used in such excess unless the missiles are liquid fueled! LOL!

» login or register to post comments
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Fyron on Wed, 2008-06-11 18:15.

Stock SEV does not encourage the use of multiple ship sizes any more than BM does... There are still optimal vehicle hulls at every tech level.


SpaceEmpires.net | Space Empires Wiki

» login or register to post comments
Captain Kwok's picture
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Captain Kwok on Wed, 2008-06-11 18:31.

Here's an exhaustive thread on ship sizes in the Balance Mod:
http://home.spaceempires.net/ftopict-4368.html

Larger ships in the mod dedicate less space to required systems and can use bigger mounts, which gives them a better dmg/kT ratio than small ships.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

» login or register to post comments
BlueTemplar's picture

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by BlueTemplar on Wed, 2008-06-11 19:33.

Yeah, stock is even worse with it's level 10 frigates with large mounts...

P.S.: Though I like the concept, but the research cost should be a lot more expensive - you should have to really invest into it if you want to reap the rewards of large mounts on frigates...

» login or register to post comments

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by plasticpanzers on Wed, 2008-06-11 21:06.

Read the thread with some interest. Supports my impression that the mod game is designed around small ships. In the original game
type you can build very powerful smaller ships that can dominate the
early game until larger ships arise. When larger ships arise its time to start working on them (kind of a preWWI naval buildup) Now it does not matter as the
time, research, and material costs of larger ships are not outweighed by their combat usability. The game mod has allowed a more "playable" game but not really a more "fun" one. Having so many different types of ship sizes in the original gave more options in ship design and capibility. Now the game is made so that smaller
ships are simply made more surviable and profitable to make which makes larger ship building usually a waste of time. Life is not fair and a game of 4x in space should certainly not be so!

Now back to my original question. Is it possible to modify the mod
to use the older ship system and keep the AI and fzncy graphics or is
it a choice of play the mod it as is or put it away?

PS: putting the multitracking system in for larger ships may give a
reason to build them again. CA can engage 2, BB and up 3 or more
other ships.

» login or register to post comments
Captain Kwok's picture
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Captain Kwok on Wed, 2008-06-11 21:14.

You need to read further into the thread than the first couple of pages. The general conclusion was that all ship sizes were useful and could have fulfilling roles.

Yes, you can change the ship sizes to some degree assuming you don't mess around with engine/crew/life support requirements.

The multi-tracking ability is not activated in SE5.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

» login or register to post comments
BlueTemplar's picture

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by BlueTemplar on Wed, 2008-06-11 21:18.

Wasn't this topic done to death already anyway?

» login or register to post comments
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Fyron on Wed, 2008-06-11 21:50.

Yes, and Kwok posted a link to it.


SpaceEmpires.net | Space Empires Wiki

» login or register to post comments

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by plasticpanzers on Thu, 2008-06-12 00:53.

I see. I am sorry Fyron and Captn' Kwok but you have altered the basis of the original game into your own version which is not bad but
just not fun for fleet actions. I do not agree that with the now very limited ship classes now it is anywhere near as fun. I did read the thread all the way thru (kinda rude to think i did not) by the way and by the end it wandered off into computations and info not really part of the thread. I am not angry with anyone, please do not think this, just don't agree with your viewpoints on design. I imagine if
I like to play the game with more fun for me i will do the original
SEV. thanks!
Tim

» login or register to post comments
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Fyron on Thu, 2008-06-12 02:27.

So basically, you aren't interested so much in all ship sizes having fulfilling roles, so much as stock's bad formulas that provide way too much hull size overlap?


SpaceEmpires.net | Space Empires Wiki

» login or register to post comments

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Firzen_Zero on Thu, 2008-06-12 14:39.

In that original game you praise so much there is no need to build many ships besides fighters.

But to get to your original question. Yes, it is possible. You'll have to have a look at a file named VehicleSizes.txt in your Balance Mod folder inside the GameTypes folder of your SEV installation.

» login or register to post comments

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by plasticpanzers on Fri, 2008-06-13 19:19.

fryon your just arguing to protect your baby and i can understand that. my enjoyment is to build specific ships to do specific roles. this changes over time thruout a game. a superdestroyer earlier on is just junk to be pasted later on but i still like the option of chosing myself rather than have it thrust upon me unilatteraly. I aways thought SE was about making a game more complex and fun, not reducing it to a "playable minimum". to me
the fun of building some fast battlecrusiers just does not exist in
the new system. I would have prefered the option of the balance mods to improve the AI and some balance. I do not as a customer
have to like some of the changes made which are neither logical nor
"historical" and now detract from the mod. There are now problems
as i see it in both the original game (fighters too powerful and too
much supply needed VS produced) and the mods which have increased the
AI of the oponents and tweaked alot of items (some not well). It is
just my opinion on what i enjoy. do not take it personally. i do
not belive this is a forum where you can appear to be "with us or
against us". what i want in a game like SEV exists still in SEIV
which i can still play (but darn i do miss the new battle graphics!!
in a mod i would loved to have the option of what option i wanted! lol! good work tho and as a gamer i do appreciate the work done.
Tim

» login or register to post comments

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by capnq on Sat, 2008-06-14 06:29.

plasticpanzers, I think you might prefer Unnamed's Upgraded AI Mod. It doesn't change the tech tree at all, AFAIK.

-----
"Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyore gloomily. "If it /is/ a good morning," he said. "Which I doubt," said he.

» login or register to post comments
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Fyron on Sat, 2008-06-14 14:06.

plasticpanzers wrote:
fryon your just arguing to protect your baby and i can understand that.
Or rather, you are just getting too hung up on random tonnage values.

I think what you really want is not the stock hull sizes, but rather QNP. This is how you get a real choice between "fast battlecruisers" and "armored cruisers." BM has its engine requirements set to be proportional to hull size, but it still caps them to create artificial speed limits. Try going into BM's VehicleSizes.txt and removing all requirements that use the function:

Get_Design_Ability_Component_Count("Movement Standard")

(Do not actually do this in the stock setup, unless you also change the Engines Per Move values to be proportional to hull size and modify the engines to provide only Movement Standard ability in increasing amounts. Refer to the values used in BM to get an idea of what to do.)


SpaceEmpires.net | Space Empires Wiki

» login or register to post comments

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by plasticpanzers on Sun, 2008-06-15 14:20.

not hungup. just enjoy the differences. appreciate the info Fyron. lets just say we agree to disagree and leave it at that. again i have nothing put praise for the work you and others have put into the game. thanks for the tip capnq, i'll take a look. good gaming to ya all.
Tim

» login or register to post comments
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Fyron on Sun, 2008-06-15 18:03.

You should really look into a true QNP setup..


SpaceEmpires.net | Space Empires Wiki

» login or register to post comments
ekolis's picture
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by ekolis on Mon, 2008-06-16 20:43.

Hey, here's another idea for propulsion... someone's probably thought of it before, but I thought I'd post it just in case...

It's sort of a hybrid between full-fledged QNP and the old "big ships are slow" system... basically, remove all engine limits, but set engines per move to be MORE than proportional to hull size! That is, if a 250kT frigate requires 50 "thrust points" to move 1 hex per turn or something, then a 500kT cruiser would require MORE than 100 - say, 125 or something.

That way, you can still make ships as fast as you like (well, within the hull's physical capacity for engines Sticking out tongue), but you get diminishing returns on your tonnage investment as your ships grow larger, so you have an INCENTIVE to make large ships slower but you're not FORCED to! (A speed 12 baseship with only ion engines? No problem, you'll just need a LOT of engines! Laughing out loud)

~~~
The power of the ancients is now yours to command. You are truly the Master... of the obvious Sticking out tongue

» login or register to post comments

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by glockgemini on Mon, 2008-06-16 21:16.

In BM, while the tonnage of baseships is only double that of a cruiser, in stock (and all mods)the combat icon is at least 20x as big. While it looks impressive on the screen and makes tactical combat very difficult, they still die fairly easily. Does anybody understand why a baseship looks bigger than a tiny planet?
The battle formations are almost worthless with baseships because the spacing is smaller than the silly icons. I usually just get a lump of ships when there are more than 9 in a fleet.

» login or register to post comments
Captain Kwok's picture
Mod Designer

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by Captain Kwok on Mon, 2008-06-16 21:26.

I made a bunch of adjustments to the combat sizes of ships in the Balance Mod for v1.15. I also reconfigured all the acceleration and turning rates, so combat goes a whole lot smoother.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

» login or register to post comments

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by glockgemini on Mon, 2008-06-16 21:41.

Cool!! That's makes me want to try it out right away.

» login or register to post comments
BlueTemplar's picture

Re: how to change mod for ship sizes

Submitted by BlueTemplar on Wed, 2008-06-18 14:02.

Quote:
It's sort of a hybrid between full-fledged QNP and the old "big ships are slow" system... basically, remove all engine limits, but set engines per move to be MORE than proportional to hull size!
A bit like in GG with the crew requirements?

Quote:
Does anybody understand why a baseship looks bigger than a tiny planet?
Because SE5 is the successor to SE4, where a planet was only 4 times (per dimension) bigger than a ship?

» login or register to post comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Now on STEAM

Now on STEAM!Space Empires V via STEAMSpace Empires IV via STEAMSTEAM online by Valve Corporation

Popular content

Today's:

  • Issues with Baseship combat pitures
  • Research By Percentage SUCKS
  • Space Empires V 1.74
  • Space Empires V
  • Space Empires V and VI: Expansions and the Future: Tell the Company What's on Your Wish List

All time:

  • Space Empires V and VI: Expansions and the Future: Tell the Company What's on Your Wish List
  • Space Empires V
  • Gritty Galaxy Fleet Clash
  • Damn Dirty Bugs/Annoyances
  • Space Empires V: General Thoughts, Observations, and Suggestions

Last viewed:

  • Ergie's map editor
  • Continuing a TCP/IP savegame
  • Space Empires crashes
  • Share Ressuply with Allies
  • Research By Percentage SUCKS
(c) Strategy First, Inc. All rights reserved.