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Home » news » forums » Space Empires V » Space Empires V General

Is there any hope of getting the Population Transport minister a new brain?

Submitted by the_weregamer on Mon, 2008-06-09 20:56. Space Empires V General

Managing population transports has been one of the most annoying bits of micromanagement in Space Empires since SE3, and it is getting worse as the simulation gets deeper. But the population transport minister is still unusably dumb about it. He/she/it just tries to take population willy-nilly from high-pop planets to low-pop ones, without even paying attention to their native atmospheres.

Once you've signed a few migration treaties or conquered a few planets, or whatever, getting rid of domed colonies is extremely important. But the population minister will blithely dump any warm bodies he can find just to make his numbers. (Reminds me of the pointiest-haired managers I've dealt with).

Worse, once you've developed warp point manipulation tech, you can arrange that no planet in your empire is more than a couple turns from any other, so there is no excuse at all for doing this.

It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to make the minister prioritize getting the *right kind* of population first, and only settle for the wrong kind if the right kind wasn't available. Similarly, he/she/it could prioritize taking population of the wrong atmosphere off of planets when looking for donor planets.

Is this fixable with a replacement AI script, or do we have to bug Aaron?

‹ Planets automatically launching fighters and sending them to a local location. Warning ›
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Captain Kwok's picture
Mod Designer

Re: Is there any hope of getting the Population Transport minist

Submitted by Captain Kwok on Mon, 2008-06-09 22:15.

It's fixable via the AI scripts.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

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Re: Is there any hope of getting the Population Transport minist

Submitted by rahlubenru on Tue, 2008-06-10 04:09.

The best one I saw was the IRM one ages ago, though others are getting better now (can't remember if hte IRM one was tempremental or not though.

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Re: Is there any hope of getting the Population Transport minist

Submitted by the_weregamer on Wed, 2008-06-11 19:03.

So I took a look at the problem last night. Programming is my Day Job, and I'm not sure how much of my fun time (which is on a budget now that I'm married) I want to dedicate to this but I think I can do a little bit better, possibly at the cost of performance on lower-end machines.

The current algorithm is not specialized for population in any way, nor for really trying for any sort of overall improvement in the planet population spread. It just says "if I'm not 75% full, look for a planet I can fill up from; If I'm mostly full, look for a planet I can dump on"

My thoughts on an algorithm that's not as efficient as a human on large transports but will work much better than the current one are as follows. (The immediate actions at the beginning handle cases that arise when the ship goes to a planet that can be improved and needs to juggle cargo; there is no per-ship state memory to handle these at the point where the planet in question was chosen as a destination.)

* If I have cargo of mixed atmospheres:
** If I am over a domed planet where some of my cargo are natives, immediately drop them and pick up non-natives, repeat until out of natives in me or non-natives on the planet.

** If I am over a non-domed planet where some of my cargo are natives, dump the natives.

** If I'm still mixed, find the nearest planet where the smallest part of my cargo are native where they will all fit, and dump them there.

** If that doesn't work, try the next smallest part of my cargo.

** If there just isn't a way to get unmixed, find a domed planet for which my empire has no natives, and dump my smallest group there.

* If I'm empty:
** Look for a planet with a mix of native and non-native population, and go take non-natives from it.

** If none of those, count the number of domed colonies by atmosphere type, and starting with the atmosphere most represented, look for a colony with lots of that kind of natives to fill up from.

** If none of these, look for a domed colony that is near or at max pop, weighting distance less significantly than normal.

** If none of those, look for any colony to fill up from, with the original weighting of distance vs overpopulation.

* If I'm not empty but less than 75% full:

** Look for a planet with lots of population of the same atmosphere as I already have, and fill up from it, with the original weighting for distance and population among candidates.

** If none, look for the nearest domed planet where my current cargo is native, go there, pick up non-natives to fill me, dump natives. (This should trigger the mixed stuff when I get there, resulting in maximal progress toward undoming.)

** If none, fall through and pretend I'm full.

* If I'm full:

** Look for the nearest domed planet where my current cargo is native and fits, and dump them there and pick up non-natives.

** If that fails, look for the nearest domed planet where my current cargo is native and there is at least some room, go there, dump natives, pick up non-natives. (This should trigger the mixed-cargo stuff.)

** If that fails, look for an undomed planet where my population is native that needs population and dump there, with the usual weighting for distance vs. need.

** If that fails, look for a domed planet that needs population and dump there, using the usual distance vs need weighting.

** If that fails, clear my "minister controlled" flag. I need human intervention.

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BlueTemplar's picture

Re: Is there any hope of getting the Population Transport minist

Submitted by BlueTemplar on Wed, 2008-06-11 19:24.

Hmm, when you're at it, could you also add a lower priority objective that will force the ship to prioritize load planets where pop growth is low and drop planets where it's high or where there are any Space Yards?

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Re: Is there any hope of getting the Population Transport minist

Submitted by the_weregamer on Wed, 2008-06-11 20:35.

Hmm, given the limitations of the scripting language it's hard to have more than one thing be an absolute priority, as I'm making undomed planets be. But if you want to define a function to replace the current one, for rating a given donor or recipient planet numerically, you could. For that matter, such a formula for the existing one would be a much more trivial change than the large amount of work I'm talking about.

I am actually hoping that somebody much more familiar with the scripting language than I am, maybe one of the folks already working on the AI, will take this algorithm and run with it. But more likely I'll try to hack it up myself.

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BlueTemplar's picture

Re: Is there any hope of getting the Population Transport minist

Submitted by BlueTemplar on Wed, 2008-06-11 21:15.

Yeah, and you're still hitting the traveling salesman problem if you want it to be really efficient...

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Re: Is there any hope of getting the Population Transport minist

Submitted by marhawkman on Thu, 2008-06-12 07:07.

Hehe, multiple paths, which is best? solving it requires parallel processing or very long streams of serial processing, parallel works better as you can evaluate several paths simultaneously. That allows you to discard certain paths without even fully evaluating them.

I remember a bug in SE2 that would sometimes cause ships to stop at a warp point and not move. it seemed to be related to not being able to find a path across the galaxy.

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Re: Is there any hope of getting the Population Transport minist

Submitted by weregamer on Thu, 2008-06-12 10:01.

Yeah, I wouldn't even try for maximal efficiency as the human player, just "decent".

When the problem is only getting from point A to point B, pathfinding is not NP-hard though, and I presume that the shortest-allowed-distance-from-A-to-B function is a builtin, or at least provided in the standard AI files. Doing it in the scripting language would be extremely tedious.

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