Weapon Discussion |
What I'm discovering is Speed + Range = Win.
I make my ship faster than yours + My gun shoots father than yours = I win.
IMHO, We need to bring better parity to weapons.
Idea:
Make ALL Weapon Types start with the same ranges. IE...all Seeking weapons begin at a certain range and all direct fire weapons start at a certain range. The difference between the weapons will be achieved through researching higher levels of said weapon, better mounts, etc. Weapons keep their same advantages and disadvantages, but ALL weapons would begin at the same range based on their class (Seeking or Direct Fire).
I can pretty much take Anti-Proton Beams at level one and use them for most of the game at level one as they out range about all other Direct Fire weapons and the same could be said for Plasma missiles. As long as my ships/Drones are faster than your ships/drones I will typically win the fight. Of course if the other player is following the same strategy and using Protons/Plasmas then it comes into parity, but this forces everyone to use the same weapons, etc in order to compete.
As I look at many of the Direct Fire weapons right now. I'm asking myself why would you choose them over Protons?
Another example: Graviton Hellbores are Vicious seeking weapons that take A LOT of research to achieve, but a meager investment into Plasma missiles outclass those Hellbores severely.
Per my other discussion.....Seekers should be able to target Drones as well.
Comments welcome.
Re: Weapon Discussion
It makes, but I would not agree with you about it at all points.
For example, you would not be able to do this with bigger ships, for the time a cruiser needs to turn around is simply to long. So you have to youse frigates or drones. But frigates can not use haevy mounts and their weapons have therefore a range which it not as high as the ones on bigger ships. You will also only be able to do your tactic at some battles in free space. If you are attacking or defending a wormhole, you will not be able to do this and it will be at least tricky to do that while attacking / defending a planet. Furthermore I would see some possibilities to counter this. You could use drones or fighters against it, or you could use heavy PD on your ships, if your opponent uses seekers, which if I remember correctly are the highest range weapons.
Re: Weapon Discussion
I don't dispute that faster always helps, but range may not be all that decisive given the way ships behave in combat (ie rushing to get to range, then turning around once the intended engagement range is reached).
For example, as a counter the AP beam scenario, take another ship with equal engines and armor, but replace the AP beams with Meson Blasters (or even DUCs), and set it to Point Blank range. Meson blasters have inferior range and accuracy, but you can pack more of them into an equal space, for a net higher damage potential. No guaranteed victory there (combat sensors and ECM/defense comes into play), but I've found it to be an effective counter; if my engine tech is up to snuff, I'll take equal level meson blasters over AP beams. (Side note: there's some intel for you in our GalDom3 game... 
)
With equal engines and a point-blank strategy, the meson ship will get into firing range and hold it there, for better or worse.
I don't have time right now to investigate, but I wonder what a DUC's range would be if you invested the equivalent RP into it as you have to invest to get level 1 AP beams. I'll check this later and re-post, but I gotta go now.
Re: Weapon Discussion
Don't forget shields and armour. They will allow you survive to fire more often than an unarmoured ship. 
My combat strategy is pure Clausewitz: There are three dimensions - Attack strength (such as firepower), Defensive strength (such as armour), and Movement (faster is often better). Balancing the three is an artform.
Re: Weapon Discussion
For example, as a counter the AP beam scenario, take another ship with equal engines and armor, but replace the AP beams with Meson Blasters (or even DUCs), and set it to Point Blank range. Meson blasters have inferior range and accuracy, but you can pack more of them into an equal space, for a net higher damage potential. No guaranteed victory there (combat sensors and ECM/defense comes into play), but I've found it to be an effective counter; if my engine tech is up to snuff, I'll take equal level meson blasters over AP beams. (Side note: there's some intel for you in our GalDom3 game... )
With equal engines and a point-blank strategy, the meson ship will get into firing range and hold it there, for better or worse.
I don't have time right now to investigate, but I wonder what a DUC's range would be if you invested the equivalent RP into it as you have to invest to get level 1 AP beams. I'll check this later and re-post, but I gotta go now.
If we have equal engines then the Proton can maintain max range and the Meson can't get his guns in range. Yes, there are the factors of turning and such in a one on one fight, but if you take multiple ships into the equation it gives the Protons a decided advantage.
This also lends itself to my earlier argument. What if I took the Racial speed bonus and you didn't? You would theoretically never go as fast as me if I maintained equal engines with you. My ships would also be 1+ movement faster than you and you would never be able to fire on my ships for more than a few seconds taking turning into account. Thus, I would would more or less be untouchable to your meson armed ships. For you trolls....yes, there are Warp Point fights, etc, but the main gist of my point is that my proton ships would be faster than the meson ships. Thus, the Protons can fire with no return fire from the Mesons. So, why build Meson ships? or anything with less range than a Proton?
Re: Weapon Discussion
There's nothing wrong with having weapons of the same firing type have different ranges assuming they have some other advantage - it's what makes things more interesting. If they differ in name only, you might as well just have one of each type.
I haven't really seen anything posted here that doesn't have a viable counter strategy and I'm not counting mirroring your opponent either. At least if we're talking BM. 
Re: Weapon Discussion
I haven't really seen anything posted here that doesn't have a viable counter strategy and I'm not counting mirroring your opponent either. At least if we're talking BM.
In theory the differences is all well and good, but in practice its another thing. Again, I will refer to templates used in MMO's as an example. Hunter with XYZ skills, Shaman with this race and XYZ skills, etc. There will become a class/skill/ability that steps above the others and if you don't copy it you will not be able to compete against it. In my PBW games its becoming evident as we trend towards fast plasma armed ships/drones and likewise Proton armed ships/drones. I've ran countless simulations against all the other player's ships and you can't beat a faster ship with better range than you. The only time this doesn't become completely over powering is in the EARLY stages of warp point fights. The faster ships will start close then out pace the slower ships making it one sided again.
I'm saying that all the differences in the weapons need to stay, but with the difference in ranges at level 1 for both seeking and direct fire weapons. Each class has the same starting range, then you can choose how to augment with varying mounts and further research into technology.
Yes, I concede that this makes no sense in a realistic sense of the differences in the weapons and their imagined ranges. What I'm looking at is game balance and more so not creating 'Cookie Cutter' empires so that you can compete.
In my PBW game I'm in now we started it after another game had to be abandoned. Me and a few others from the earlier game fought Grendillo and his VERY Fast, Emissive Armored Plasma Frigates that coincidentally ate us alive. In this new PBW game I've now noticed 3 of us modeled our starting Race after Grendillo's preferences that was so thumping our heads in the previous game. This sparked my attention as the first steps in creating 'Cookie Cutter' empires that I so hate in MMO's. I've been influenced by that first game and how overwhelmingly we were getting thumped by those Plasma Frigates. Since then all my games have modeled themselves after that learning experience. It has since evolved to encompass ships and drones under this theory. I'm going to breach a warp point or two in a few turns against empires not practicing this theory and I will report my successes.
Actually, 'Gusset' can attest to his ships fighting 5 drones of mine that I accidentily sent through a warp point of his.
Re: Weapon Discussion
Is there a way to record or post the combat replays for others to watch?
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SE5 Files hosted on Filefront (Patches, Mods, Races, etc)
Re: Weapon Discussion
You can upload it somewhere (YouTube,..) and post the link. To record it, I think fraps is the easiest tool to do this.
Re: Weapon Discussion
I think you miss one point. Letting all same type weapon have the same range at first level don't change the "problem" you have posted, since no one would usa only the first level of a weapon. A first level weapon is often so inefficient that it's useless. So, if the weapon has the same range only at first level, but change the max range (normally reached around 6/7 level) the difference between max range are still here. Like Cap. Kwok said, it's fun to have different weapon with different range/rof/abilitydamage types. Think about this: APB has very poor damage at long range... so a good emissive armor let your enemy resist most of damage you can done. The best weapon are Plasma missile, best range, damage and so one, but... with PD you can defende your self. There are many strategies to counter the "big range fastest ship"... without using same design!
I want too make some "refit" to weapons, but to make them MORE different...
Re: Weapon Discussion
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Re: Weapon Discussion
There's a lack of information here. What size ships in those fleets? Tactical or Strategic combat? Are units involved?
If we're talking Tactical, then all discussion is moot. I can kill a ship without taking any damage even if we had the same range and same speed if we're in Tactical combat (assuming the weapon isn't instant-travel beams). Tactical allows for intelligent pincer movements so I assume we're discussing Strategic.
I seem to recall a similar discussion back in the IRM days. My argument there was: it doesn't matter if you can't kill their ships because they outrun and out-range you - so long as you make yourself unkillable to their tactics. I would ignore your ships and go straight for your planets where you'd be forced to fight me head-on. This assuming I haven't decided to toss out fighters and drones around.
Actually, Simultaneous vs Sequential turns would also greatly affect this equation. If it's sequential, I can keep a cloak of Ionic Mines around me, making it inconvenient to rush my fleets.
If I wanted to be complicated, I'd try to figure out what your "Maximum Weapon Range" exactly was and build a lure ship that'd run away, causing all your ships to follow it and thus, right into the rest of my fleet.
---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go to this Wiki if interested. No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE
Re: Weapon Discussion
I lean pretty heavily on seekers, and I've found that they don't automatically whomp everything.
Sats are a cheap, simple counter to seekers' range advantage. Fighters are too, for that matter.
And if you've ever used seekers against an opponent with excess PD's, you know it's nigh on impossible to hurt them.
Re: Weapon Discussion
Sats are a cheap, simple counter to seekers' range advantage. Fighters are too, for that matter.
And if you've ever used seekers against an opponent with excess PD's, you know it's nigh on impossible to hurt them.
The problem I'm encountering is not so much the seeking weapons themselves, but the option you can take with them.
Example:
1. A stack of lets say 50 Medium Drones with 2 missle launchers per drone with a speed of 18.
2. That stack shoots 100 missles per 6 seconds at the enemy. If you have ships you will most likely not be at 50 ships on average.
3. The sheer volume of fire from the units (cheap units) simply overwhelms you and they will out range all your direct fire ships. Plus, they will out range the ships point defense as well. Plus, the ships PD will be double taxed if they get in range firing at the drones and missles.
Re: Weapon Discussion
We are using BM1.09pbw and the latter BM versions let seekers target Drones, so that helps.
I got side tracked from my point.
Game set up:
1. My race opted for bonus movement.
2. May race researched Plasma missles.
Dilemma:
1. If the other players don't take Extra movement I will always be faster.
2. If the other players don't research Plasma missles I will always out range them.
My issues from the Top:
1. If you don't take the extra speed and research Plasma missles you will be at a serious disadvantage.
2. Due to getting chewed up by my Empire. Everyone takes the same approach so they don't get grinded under heel by those who do.
3. Walla, we now have 'Cookie Cutter' empires.
My point again is that I worry the game could swing this direction and I'm trying to stop it before it really turns people off. Single play is up to you as I'm talking about multiplayer human games and ruining the fun for all.
Re: Weapon Discussion
I see drones as a separate issue. Ueber drones may indeed be a threat to game balance. (I do like Kwok's idea of taking them out with cheap kamikaze fighers!)
But the situation you describe shouldn't be all that bad. Just engage with a small flock of sat layers. They'll run and drop sats as they go.
The plasma ships will die if they give chase, so the other player now has a big problem on his hands: Does he alter his strats to keep his ships from engaging sat layers? Nobody can afford to take such a risk. He'll have to change his designs/fleet composition and include more direct-fire weaponry. Then he won't be able to saturate PDs as he could with a pure seeker fleet. The multi-bay sat carrier has some serious mojo.
"Pup carriers" are another option. Just slap a fighter bay on a FF and let the little monsters do all the work. He won't be faster than them.
I may only play the AI, but I know what it's like to face faster opponents. I hold off on engine research, and my ships are almost always slower than the opposition. And sometimes they have greater range as well. But there are plenty of counters available.
Fleets make things even more interesting. Using multiple TFs one or the other will approach the enemy's flank, so the vector that used to take him out of range won't work. There are more tricks, but I don't know if custom TF formations work in multi-player games.
Really, every noob learns to use max range strat with seekers. It's not the ultimate technique, even with a little extra refinement. Yes, the simplest counter is to play copycat; but there are others. I'm no SE encyclopedia, yet even I have more than I've said (saving the best in case I get a chance to play some real opponents).
Re: Weapon Discussion
Sounds like someone is perhaps trying to talk themselves into joining the EOTU tourney...
http://thewelloftakahlah.spaces.live.com/
Come on in, it's great fun. As a player who's tasted victory and defeat (EOTU and KOTH), the SEV multiplayer community is a classy bunch to play against, win or lose.
Re: Weapon Discussion
I'd done been playin', but there are 2 obstacles:
1. My schedule. I was just gone for over 2 months. Things can come up on pretty short notice, and it wouldn't be fair to other players.
2. The machine I play on isn't online, so I'd have to save the files & manually transfer them.
Re: Weapon Discussion
1. Your schedule should not be so problematic. It is 1vs1, so if you can send a mail and explain how long you will be away it should be ok. Also most games are only lasting one month... (However if you will be away for much to long, you will probably kicked out of the game, but this should not be so huge a problem, too, for you can play another one when you are back.
In "normal" games you would probably have to withdraw, but this will not effect the other players so much, there will be another one who wants to take over.
2. This could actually be a problem, at least the first 10 turns will be more transfering then playing.
....But PBW is so much fun.
Re: Weapon Discussion
Let me add.
Everyone try this in the combat simulator. Make a faster ships with longer ranges versus slower ships with different weapons. Set the Faster ship to Maximum weapon range.
I know we will have the comment, "Just choose faster racial traits and research the same weapons your opponent is beating you with." Well, thats what I'm trying to avoid is the cookie cutter races. For example: In many MMO's someone comes out with a killer class/skill set and everyone copies it. Next thing you know we have 20 Empires in the game all the same or forced to be the same since they can't compete with the cookie cutter races.
Make Sense?
SE5 Files hosted on Filefront (Patches, Mods, Races, etc)