Drones |
I'm in a few games I am using Drones as well as others. I'm starting to think they are too powerful in relation to their cost.
Overpowered:
1. Reduced maint cost.
2. Cheap to build.
3. High defense bonus.
4. Use any weapon
5. Restricted on what weapons can target them.
In my opinion you could take 30 Drones versus 30 Ships and the drones would win. A lot of the problem lies in that a drone can carry any weapon a ship can carry with targeting restrictions other than the weapon's limits. While a ship can carry the same weapons as a Drone, but certain ship weapons cannot target the drone. For example if you have a fleet of Missle armed ships you will be in a big hurt if you run accross missle armed Drones as the drones can shoot you, but you can't shoot them.
Many will say that Point Defense is needed, but against a Missle armed Drone your Point Defense must defend against incoming missles AND fire at the Drones. The Point Defense becomes overwhelmed.
Others will say you need fighters to counter Drones, but Drones can mount anti-fighter weapons. I can take a Drone with a Proton Beam that can move faster than fighters and stay at max range killing off the fighters without any return fire.
I can take a stack of 50 Drones with Plasma missles and kill about aything that crosses my Path whether its Battleships or Frigates. My ships longest range weapon is the Anti-Proton Beam at roughly 100 parsecs. The Drone's Plasma missles reach out over 200 parsecs. Set the Drones to Max weapon ranges and watch them kill 500 Battle ships as the Battleships Plasma's can't target the Drones and the Battleship's Protons can't get in range.
Possible Fixes?
1. Let all weapons target Drones?
2. Limit Drones to Warheads only?
3. Increase Drone requirements (Other Technology dependencies)?
4. Better Drone specific point defenses for ships, platforms, etc?
5. Increase Drone Maint costs to limit their numbers?
I lean towards the easy fix of making any weapon able to target Drones, so at least the ships can match weapon ranges with them. This also creates the Dynamic that the Drones would need point Defense to be effective and not be able to mount as many weapons.
(Posting this here and the Shrapnel site)
Posted from below for quick reference.
Idea:
Drones have a Drone control computer that directs their movement with the originally designed intention to ram its target. The cost to produce and maintain these drones are based on that intended purpose.
To have a drone with anything other than Warheads it should require a more advanced computer to handle the targeting and such. ie...Master Computer.
Create a new "Master Computer" for drones and make the cost fall in line with current master computers build/upkeep costs. The build cost to add a master computer to a ship is HUGE. Why should a drone get all the advantages that a Master Computer gives a ship for such a SMALL research and materials investment?
Warhead Drone = Cheap to build and maintain.
Weapons Drone = More advanced and MUCH more expensive to maintain.
To faciltate this it may require a new drone hull, so that the old drones will work correctly. This would let you make the cheap expendable drones as intended, but if you want fancy drones you must pay for it.
Taking away the weapon drone's reduced mait cost plus increasing their build cost would greatly reduce the amount of weapon drones you could field. This would all but eliminate the stacks of hundreds of missle armed drones.
Re: Drones
Drones are not THAT powerful. They for one thing cannot use weapon mounts.
I have a few hundred drones in one of the games I play, but their effect against my opponents is severely limitid.
Also considering they run out of ordenance and supplies very fast....
I don't think they need changing.
~Myrath
Re: Drones
Note that seeker weapons can target Drones in the Balance Mod.
Re: Drones
Also considering they run out of ordenance and supplies very fast....
I don't think they need changing.
~Myrath
Then you haven't played against a real person using Drones. My Medium Drones have 2000+ Supplies with Plasma missles and a speed of 20 (Quantum engines with Solar Sails and Racial movement). No ship can get near them and they chew up everything. Heck, I don't even put armor on them as the only time I worry is breaching a warp point and I have some armored drones for that.
Re: Drones
Kwok,
Is that true in BM 1.09PBW?
Re: Drones
It is the same in BM 1.09. Most BM weapons can target drones.
Seems to be only a stock issue then...
Re: Drones
A quick check shows I forgot to transfer the updated target lists for seekers in the v1.09 PBW patch. Without the targeting it's a bit more difficult to counter, but can be done. Kamikaze fighters work pretty good.
Re: Drones
From p.25 of the PDF Manual:
"Drones
Drones are large computer-controlled missiles. They are designed much like small ships and can carry engines, shields, weapons, and most
especially, warheads. Drones are usually equipped with a large warhead used to damage ships or planets. Drones are launched from ships or
planets and seek out an enemy target. Once the drone encounters the target, it will ram the target and do as much damage as possible. Most
drones are constructed with special materials giving them an increase in their speed.
Drones can be launched during combat and during the normal game. When launched from a planet or ship in the normal game, they must
immediately be given a target. This target can be a ship or a planet. The movement of the drone is automatic towards its target. Once the
target is given, it cannot be changed. However, if the drone loses its target for some reason, it may be assigned a new target. You cannot
choose whether a drone gets into combat or not, it is automatic.
Drones can be launched during combat from ships carrying them. Once launched, the drone will automatically pick a target from those
available in combat and seek it out (to ram and destroy it). You cannot control a drone during combat. If the drone survives the combat, and its
target was killed, then it may be given a new target. If your ships are transiting a warp point, drones can be launched through the warp point to
destroy any defenders before your ships make it through.
Drones cannot be resupplied. Once they exhaust the supply they are launched with, they will expire. Even if a drone just sits in space, it will
consume supplies. Its best that once a drone is launched, you give it a target before it expires from lack of supply."
Seems like they didn't turn out that way. Reducing drones to short-range super missiles would now be considered "nerfing" them, most likely.
Re: Drones
"Drones
Drones are large computer-controlled missiles. They are designed much like small ships and can carry engines, shields, weapons, and most
especially, warheads. Drones are usually equipped with a large warhead used to damage ships or planets. Drones are launched from ships or
planets and seek out an enemy target. Once the drone encounters the target, it will ram the target and do as much damage as possible. Most
drones are constructed with special materials giving them an increase in their speed.
Drones can be launched during combat and during the normal game. When launched from a planet or ship in the normal game, they must
immediately be given a target. This target can be a ship or a planet. The movement of the drone is automatic towards its target. Once the
target is given, it cannot be changed. However, if the drone loses its target for some reason, it may be assigned a new target. You cannot
choose whether a drone gets into combat or not, it is automatic.
Drones can be launched during combat from ships carrying them. Once launched, the drone will automatically pick a target from those
available in combat and seek it out (to ram and destroy it). You cannot control a drone during combat. If the drone survives the combat, and its
target was killed, then it may be given a new target. If your ships are transiting a warp point, drones can be launched through the warp point to
destroy any defenders before your ships make it through.
Drones cannot be resupplied. Once they exhaust the supply they are launched with, they will expire. Even if a drone just sits in space, it will
consume supplies. Its best that once a drone is launched, you give it a target before it expires from lack of supply."
Seems like they didn't turn out that way. Reducing drones to short-range super missiles would now be considered "nerfing" them, most likely.
Wow, what they are now is a big departure from what is described in the manual.
Re: Drones
Idea:
Drones have a Drone control computer that directs their movement with the originally designed intention to ram its target. The cost to produce and maintain these drones are based on that intended purpose.
To have a drone with anything other than Warheads it should require a more advanced computer to handle the targeting and such. ie...Master Computer.
Create a new "Master Computer" for drones and make the cost fall in line with current master computers build/upkeep costs. The build cost to add a master computer to a ship is HUGE. Why should a drone get all the advantages that a Master Computer gives a ship for such a SMALL research and materials investment?
Warhead Drone = Cheap to build and maintain.
Weapons Drone = More advanced and MUCH more expensive to maintain.
To faciltate this it may require a new drone hull, so that the old drones will work correctly. This would let you make the cheap expendable drones as intended, but if you want fancy drones you must pay for it.
Taking away the weapon drone's reduced mait cost plus increasing their build cost would greatly reduce the amount of weapon drones you could field. This would all but eliminate the stacks of hundreds of missle armed drones.
Re: Drones
I like the sound of that. Actually it could just require the same Master Computer used by ships for the advanced drones, I'd say.
I still don't think it would be easy to mod the drones back to the original idea. Keeping players from changing the target or resupplying drones could be problematic.
Re: Drones
Then again, if your going up against a balanced fleet, fighters will own drones, esp those which are outfitted with seekers and cannot scarcely fight back, they are thus good but counterable.
Re: Drones
I've been looking into this recently for my star-fire-esk mod. So far what I've done is to reduce cost greatly, as well as drone tonnage amount. As for weapon choices, i've limited it to the modded external ordanance missles I've designed or the game. Thus the fact that many weapons can't target them isn't that big of an issue as they no longer carry massive amounts of fire power. Plus with a reduced movement ability they've become effectively just disposable units for assaulting a warp point, or senser pods for exploring a warp point. (Very Star Fire flavor). Furthermore I changed the tech tree to make them a mid-late game addition.
"Trying to teach me to be politically correct is like trying to teach a dead dog to play fetch.... futile."
Re: Drones
My issue with them came about as I realized they were getting all the benefits of a Master Computer (in BM) for a VERY small fraction of the cost. I see the Drone computer core as a simple "Drive there. Ram target XYZ." The drone was intended to be cheap and disposable. They were also intended to be unable to resupply.
Adding weapons to the Drone and it taking part in battles as a full fledged combatant that usess the strategies of a ship, etc IMO is FAR above the computing power of the standard drone computer core.
This allows you to create cheap ships that can be used in mass and VERY effectivily.
Try creating a stack of your cheap drones and then take the same equivalent of maintenence costs in ships. Do battle and see what happens.
My issues:
1. Drones were intended to be cheap to build.
2. Cheap to maintain.
3. Not able to be resupplied.
4. Ram target and be gone.
As you can see their intended design is a far departure from you can do with them now. I feel they are in real need of rebalancing. Especially, in a multiplayer game they can be extremely broken in terms of game balance.
Re: Drones
The Drone Computer Core in current Balance Mod versions is 20kT with a cost of 500 minerals and 500 radioactives. The cost per kT is comparable to a Master Computer when you consider there's no savings from the removal of Crew Quarters and Life Support.
Re: Drones
For reference:
Master Computer:
Tonnage Space Taken Formula := 40
Tonnage Structure Formula := 40 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 20)
Cost Minerals Formula := 4000 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 500)
Cost Organics Formula := 1000 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 250)
Cost Radioactives Formula := 1000 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 250)
Drone Computer Core:
Tonnage Space Taken Formula := 20
Tonnage Structure Formula := 20
Cost Minerals Formula := 500
Cost Organics Formula := 0
Cost Radioactives Formula := 500
Re: Drones
I always try to picture things to help consider balance. If a Drone is to fight with the same intelligence as a ship then they (cores) should be the same size, etc. Otherwise, how can you justify the Master Computer costing more than the Drone Computer when they peform and behave exactly the same? As a race then it would make sense to use drone computer cores in your ships since they are as smart and functional, but far less expensive.
Possible idea: Drone cores are smaller, but not as smart. Impose Attack/Defense penalities to represent the lower computing power? Can you restrict their strategies?
Re: Drones
The Master Computer is larger because it automates larger vehicles. The actual percentage of space used on the vehicle itself is similar in most cases.
There are no bonuses provided by the Drone Computer Core for combat, so that can be considered its penalty. Another consideration is that Drones do not accrue experience, while a ship with a master computer can.
Re: Drones
There are no bonuses provided by the Drone Computer Core for combat, so that can be considered its penalty. Another consideration is that Drones do not accrue experience, while a ship with a master computer can.
I agree with your comments and I see you point.
I could counter argue that a ship for control purposes is just a big drone. Since there are no crew, etc I would reason that it should be stripped down to the bare essentials hull similar to a drone. The differences being its a learning computer and more accurate.
Back to cost. When i picture the cost for a MC I see it more about the time and complexity to produce versus the sheer amount of materials required in construction. Thinking like that i still beleive the Drone Core is under priced. If you think of it in modern day terms. A car has a internal computer tracking and affecting the cars performance. In relation to a Quad Core 3.00ghtz computer with 8 gig RAM, etc the cars computer is primitive. Why do we not put top of the line computers in a car? Because its over kill. In constructing a drone that is intended to smash into something and die. Why would you put the expensive, harder to produce and smarter QuadCore in it instead of the primitive computer that gets the job done cheaply?
I understand what you say in reference to size when comparing the DC to the MC, but that doesn't factor in complexity in producing said DC. Also, I don't see why the MC would need more processing power for the ship just because its bigger (not counting learning + att/def). Lets say you factor out the MC's learning and Att/Def bonuses. Considering that the MC performs the same functions as the DC that weighs 20kts and uses 1000 resources (500, 0, 500). What size would you say the MC should be with no learning + Att/Def?
A quick fix/balance possibility. If the drone was unable to resupply it would be a different story. They would be the one shot wonders they were intended to be versus the cheap, FAST, overwhelming force they are now.
Reminder: Most of my argument is from multiplayer experience using and fighting drones. In a single player game you as the player can easily walk over the computer using all drone forces. Try it. Build 2 drone types for the whole game. One Drone using Proton beam + Point Defense and the other using Plasma missiles + Point Defense. No need for shipyards AT ALL. Mass them up and sweep the computer under foot. This works in multiplayer as well if the other player is using ships. You will VASTLY out produce him since you can build on every planet, etc.
Re: Drones
I think you are right. I never got it, why my missles can not aim at drones which are as big as frigates (240(BM)/260(stock) kt - 250 kt)...