optional techs (organic/crystal etc)

Two more nice advantages for Organic. Ordinance Vats, grow ordinance on a ship, your ships can keep pushing the fight instead of going back to resupply! And Organic ships swap the mineral and organic costs. Also I think the Parasite ends up with a longer range.

I like to play as the silicoids (shameless moo3 reference) So for purely rp reasons I like crystalline

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The specialized tech weapons are almost always better, in some way.

Parasites have longer range, fire faster, and use fewer supplies. They do slightly less damage, but have overall better DPS and range (being the longest ranged weapon in stock, IIRC).

A lot of the other specialized weapons also have special bonuses.

The thing that annoys me is when you get *some* of the bonuses of another tech line, but not all. Like with Temporal: you get better shipyards, but you still have to research Shipyard technologies to get Space Yards. There should have been a Temporal Space Yard component.

Religious is very powerful, what with their Shrines (love Nature Shrine!) and ship components.

i tried organic in my last game and i didn´t like it. with ongoing research other weapons were better than the organic-weapons. i also like to play with shields and not so much with armor.

i´m just trying a game with a crystalline race but it semms like i don´t like them either.
the crystalline armor is too expensive for that benefit.
didn´t get the weapons till now, maybe they are better than the organic ones.
one thing i like as crystalline are the solar generators. you get resources for every star in the system. i have a 3-star system, guess what i build on the planets i got there

i´ll try the temporal next, and as things are now i´ll go back to a normal race and spend my trait-points somewhere else.

please remember: this is just a personal opinion, not based on calculations or higher math about wich tech is better than the other......just some regular 2 cents

Some times the special race weapons will have a special ability.

For instance, the Shard Cannon (Crystalline Tech) skips all armor.

"Only by being constantly at war with evil in all things, including yourself, can you truely know peace."
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The assorted organic weapons get 'upgrades' at some point. The Acid one gets 40ls better range and a little better damage, the Plasma one also gets 40ls better range and a little more damage, the Lightning Ray is sweet with its extra 50ls pottential range (140ls range!) and better damage than the Electric Discharge, making it far superior to the Anti-Proton Beam in both range and damage.

They Power Lamprey is nasty in concept at least, damaging enemy supplies rather than the ship itself, it could possibly leave a ship without supplies for its weapons and other systems!

The 'slow ships down' weapon is... interesting.

Self regenerating armor can be handy in some ways, one less thing to repair.

There are some good organic facilitis, including one that litterally 'makes' population!

Crystalline tech is interesting.
One facility reduces maintenance costs, another one increases shields of all your ships in the system by... a pathetic amount... a fighter with small shields can get more shields than it provides.
Seems to be lacking as far as anything else, the AP weapons simply don't seem to be all that much, and crystalline armor doesn't seem all that usefull if big weapons are involved, but could possibly be useful against fighters (untl they reach overkill status in Stock). The one energy reflector is next to useless at first, and the 'big' energy gun is only good until you get the wave motion gun (or incinerator beam if you don't mind a shorter range).

Religious Tech has no real weapons iirc, but lots of components and facilities.
The assorted shrines are useful, such as increase planet valus, increasing production of resources, etc, and some of the components offer interesting advantages, including a one that has an effect similar to stealth armor. The Fate Shrine reduces the chances of bad things happening (both 'natural' and 'intel' related)
Vengance Totem + Religious Talisman + Stealth Totem, and defending your system with a Death Shrine and War Shrine present... much pain that rarely misses while being a little hard to hit (and detect).

Temporal tech is handy in some ways.
Interesting weapons and facilities. The main weapon of interest has only moderate damage, but does quad damage to shields.
The few facilities are very useful in their own ways.

Psychic tech is very interesting.
Useful facilities that boost ship/fleet XP gained, scan ships, etc. Some useful weapons, although the most powerful one is shorter ranged and slower firing than the wave motion gun. The allegience subvertor... never really used it, but getting a ship to 'swap sides' seems like an interesting concept.

I haven't played with any of the "special" traits, but I do know coming up against organic armor can be annoying. I can envision this being very useful in large fleet battles, you could send your ships in waves, pulling them back after some damage to regenerate their armor while the next wave engages. Also useful on sats and bases where repair is difficult. Also, does having these traits preclude you from researching and using the traditional weapons? BTW, I like to use the Propulsion experts and increased facility space traits.
"We are the Vahl, resistance is...welcomed"

one general thing that is not so nice with this special traits: you don´t have anything of it in the beginning.
to get the first tech in organic you need....what was it...about 100k research? that´s much in the beginning. for the first weapons you need another 120k or so.
so that is some time to cover till you can use any of your nice traits.

Depends on which mod you use actually, as each mod re-balances the numbers. But in general if I pick Organic/Crystalline, it's not for the weapons (though Alliegance Subverter pretty much tells the enemy to not get massive huge ships).

Primarily it's for the reduced mineral consumption (read: faster ship building) of my empire. Unless strangely modded, shipyards build in all 3 resources at an equal rate, yet normal ships mostly cost Minerals. You are almost always left with a fat surplus of Organics and probably of Radioactives too - makes those 140+% Organic planets rather useless in early game where you don't have much population etc. A well-designed Organic ship should take half the time to build as a real ship and be almost as (or more) deadly, simply because you split the Mineral and Organic costs equally.

Aside from that, it's for the armours. I play with custom (read: tight-packed) formations and put emphasis on having 'meat shields', Direct Fire and Seekers in separate 'layers'. With Organic or Crystalline, my 'meat shields' can go through some weird sick beatings before finally caving in. Naturally, 'meat shields' only have 1 small weapon and PD on them, and everything else is armour.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

One thing on the Crystal tech:

I'm at only level 30 in an Unknown mod game right now and was feeling the same about the relative uselessness of the crytal techs, but did some math:

Combine an energy reflector (level 30 = -30 % damage)
and reflective armor (level 30 = 60 points damage reflected back to shields)

Now, the enemy level 30 beam weapons are doing around 300 points of damage.

- 30% = 210
- 60 = 150

So those 2 technologies cut enemy beam weapon damage in half and I'm only at level 30. Not too bad and since the energy reflector works on PERCENT, not an increase in AMOUNT its only going to get more powerful...

If I understand correctly, at level 100, enemy ship beam weapons will be doing, what, 0% damage?

One thing that I think has been over looked is that you should be able to build alot more ships that a normal empire with one of the Organic or crystal traits. You would be able to build x amount of normal hull ships using the mineral rec and then another x amount of "special" hull ships using the racial trait because they require another type of resource.

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I want to give you guys a heads up on the Alliegance Subverter. There get in battle, they take over the other's ships but at the end of combat 'your new' ship turn will go back to their first owner

Ah yeah, is good to dispel any misconception about the Allegiance Subverter - is a temporary effect. Still BIG when you manage to steal a massive enemy ship and wipe the fleet out, then beat it up next turn.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

Like one time my brother and I was playing a mod that we made so we modifed the Alliegance Subverter(think it would be like SE4) and my brother made it his main weapon for one of his ship and made a fleet with only this ship and sented it after me, thats when we found out that it was temp. Oh yes I won the game the long game

If your opponent has a self destruct on a ship, you can self destruct it before the end of battle.

I like certain combinations, like organic beams and religious totems, throw in powerful shielding, and you've got a nearly invincible dreadnaught. (sortof, beam range limits give you problems against missiles)

Since this topic started with the subject of research costs...

Keep in mind that you only have to research ONE tech once the gateway tech is out of the way. Otherwise you have to research several individual techs, one each for your weapon, heavy weapon, and armor.

"Only by being constantly at war with evil in all things, including yourself, can you truely know peace."
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I played whit this techs quite a lot today so here's my 2 cents :

1. Psyhic - 8/10 Good facilites and impresive weapons definetly worth it .
2. Religious - 10/10 Execelent faicilites (Nature Shrine FTW) and great ship componets . A must have.
3. Temporal - 5/10 The shipyard is nice and the weapon that skips shield and armor . Not realy worth it although fighters that attack directly the structure can be a scary thing. Not worth the points .
4. Organic - 3.5/10 Creating ordinace on your vesels is sweet and building faster but it's just not worth 1000 points .
5. Crystaline - 1/10 The facility that gets resouces from the star is nice other then that it's prety crappy .

I would have to disagree with crystalline being 1/10 I seem to do well with it.

Groovy Baby Yeah!

I don't think he's quite aware of the reduced build times and wonderful attributes of Organic and Crystalline Armor that you gain from Organic and Crystalline traits...

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

Aye. Not to mention, the "Anti-Beam weapons" defences of Crystalline actually is significant against certain opponents (like me). If you're using anything other than instant-travel Beam weapons, then chances are you don't have enough (densely packed) guns and (densely packeD) targets to feel the pain of overkill. Crystalline tech would be a nightmare for me if I was facing a competent opponent.

Lower Maintenance for more ships being built is also significant from an economic viewpoint. Larger defence fleets for the same maintenance price.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

Could someone detail out exactly the formula used for crystalline armor? I could use the info myself too... Is there some difference to "instant travel" beams and other beams?

Psieye's "instant" reference was because beams hit their target's instantaneously, while other weapons have travel times.

In stock, Crystalline Armor ranges from 2 to 102 in its shield generation from damage ability. In the Balance Mod, the sgfd ability ranges from 5 to 15. You can read about the mechanics of Crystalline Armor here: http://wiki.spaceempires.net/index.php/Crystalline_Armor

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

Captain Kwok wrote:

I don't think he's quite aware of the reduced build times and wonderful attributes of Organic and Crystalline Armor that you gain from Organic and Crystalline traits...

Organic yes but Crystalline consumes Radioactives so the building bonus ins't as good as Organics . The Crystalline armor is cute but i tend to favor shields and regular+organic armor over Crystalline .

General Apocalypse wrote:

Captain Kwok wrote:

I don't think he's quite aware of the reduced build times and wonderful attributes of Organic and Crystalline Armor that you gain from Organic and Crystalline traits...

Organic yes but Crystalline consumes Radioactives so the building bonus ins't as good as Organics . The Crystalline armor is cute but i tend to favor shields and regular+organic armor over Crystalline .

Plus for me, I use Organics for Bio-weapons anyway (crew damage is the one thing you cannot fix for a space station floating over a warp point). There are ways to split the costs.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

Ya my bad i was confusing CA whit the beam damage reduction module . Crystalline is intresting but atm it dosen't cut it . However if you come against someone that is energe weapon adicted you can give him nightmares whit crystalline tech.

Crystalline Armor works against all weapon types. A typical ratio of Crystalline Armor to Shield Generators is at least 5:1. You typically can gain up to 50% damage reduction, and in some cases almost complete damage negation!

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

If the total shield generation from damage ability of the Crystalline Armors is greater than the incoming weapon damage and the weapon damage can't destroy more than half the armor panel, then the amount of shields generated will be as much as the damage coming in - so you'll have almost perpetual shields, unless of course the enemy is mounting some larger weapons, which is the primary counter if the enemy is not using skip armor or skip all weapons.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

That sounds very stupid . Complete damage negation ? So you have to instapop the enemy vesel or what ?

EDIT : Ok i've just tested a starbase whit heavy shield lots of point defenses lots of crystaline armor and some regular armor . Againt 5 cruisers it managed to hold it's ground , against 1 heavy carrier it was shreded .

In both cases the shield didn't came back one bit and i wached it in slow motion . Am i missing something ?

2nd EDIT : ah now i get it . It still sucks imo. Or am i the only guy that dosen't send a ship to do solo action ?

What level armor are you using? Stock starts out at generally useless levels (ie they are not scaled well to the typical damage of contemporary weapons), but later levels are much more effective.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

All tech is maxed out the cruisers had 6 anti-proton beams and the fighters had 4 riper beams and the carrier had about 100 fighters . Launching 20 in a row

Well, exact performance would depend upon the mod and exactly how advanced your research is. Though... why is regular armour even on this test Starbase? I'd stick crystalline armour on every armour slot and then think about shields (with regenerators) and weapons.

---Sig---
Playing Touhou games (Go here if interested . No, nobody else is that good/insane as that replay). No rush for SE V bug fixing.

Yeah the regular armor might be skewing the results. As a Crystalline fan I never research regular armor.

Groovy Baby Yeah!