Troops need balancing |
Troops. They stink, right? They don't move unless their path is completely clear, so they get mowed down one by one instead of mobbing things. They're half the size of fighters, so they can't fit on both weapons and armor. Yet this small size gives them only +15% to defense, while fighters get +50%. Heavy weapons can target troops, but can't target fighters: rocket pods, antimatter torpedoes, cluster bombs, and graviton beams. And their unique weapon, the ground cannon, doesn't even have the range of a small depleted uranium cannon. Troops need to be better balanced. Paging Captain Kwok!
I have a really simple solution for this one. Just change that measly +15% defense modifier to something like +80%. I mean, that's why invasions in the real world don't use only aircraft -- troops dig in and are hard to hit. You'd have to use a Dresden-like amount of air power to completely clear an area of troops. And it just makes sense. An 8kT troop should be twice as hard to hit as a 16kT fighter.
If troops were balanced this way, people might actually bring them to invasions. I'd like to see troops be your go-to guys for ground combat. That's what they do, right? People would bring fighters only if they had some left over from the invasion fleet. Or maybe you'd bring troops to fight the troops, and fighters to take out the weapons platforms with torpedoes. Balancing troops would make ground combat really ground combat, and a lot more fun.
Re: Troops need balancing
I think you missed a few factors.
(I'm using stock, so bare with me)
1:
In stock, Troops get no bonuses, Small/Medium/Large Fighters got +80%/+70%/+60% defense bonus and 52% attack bonus.
This actually makes a good deal of sense.
Fighters are fast and move in three dimensions, pilots train to attack other fast moving fighters over long ranges.
Troops (tanks) are slow, and stuck on the ground, crews train to shoot other slow ground targets at not so long ranges.
Ground forces, even tanks, have been vulnerable to air power for a long time. Be it the fighters of WWII, to the now aging, tank busting, A-10 Warthog. No dedicated AA vehicles makes things worse for ground units.
Combined arms tactics are needed, a use of ground and air power to support each other...
Unless you want to find some way to put the equivilent of Bolos or Ogres into the game...
2:
Tech levels.
At higher tech levels, the space gap between Troops and Fighters shrinks.
3:
Space Used by 'needed' items (full engines and cockpits/life support).
Kt per kt, troops can have a potential to carry a higer average amount of weapons and armor than fighters. (e.g., large troop with 90% of space available, vs. large fighter with 74% of space available)
4:
Ordnance.
DU Cannons need ordnance, Ground Cannons do not.
That gives Ground Cannons a slight advantage in not needing to use space on ordnance storage, and no chance of 'running out of ammo' during battle.
5:
IRL, DU rounds tend to be a lot nastier and more effective than conventional rounds fired by equal sized cannons.
Some possible ideas.
New weapons.
A fast firing gun with an attack bonus and which can only target fighters, or a seeker weapon that is slow firing, but fires fast seekers that do massive damage but only target fighters.
Perhaps even a modified Troop only version of the Flack Cannon, PD guns, or Bomblet Missiles.
A "Heavy Ground Cannon", twice as heavy, 50% longer reload time, several times more power, greater range.
Description could be "A heavy cannon that launches large high explosive rounds over long range".
It would be to give Troops a ground based counter to the Cluster Bombs, Small Torpedoes and Rocket Pods that Fighters can carry for use against troops.
Re: Troops need balancing
Sounds like someone needs to have a look at the ground combat mod 
The next update will include a reduction in size of tanks so that they are less dominant over infantry.
Re: Troops need balancing
Hey rditto, thanks for replying to my thread. Sorry I forgot to say I was talking about Balance Mod. Brad, is there a description of Ground Combat Mod anyplace?
I agree that it makes sense to give fighters an advantage over ground troops. But it doesn't make sense when that leads to people conducting invasions only with fighters. If you make troops harder to hit, fighters will still have the advantage of longer range and greater maneuverability that allows them to mass their forces while troops are trying to get close enough to fire. But just like in the real world, it'll be difficult to conquer someone without boots on the ground.
Remember, the point is not to make sense, the point is to have fun battles with troops. In the real world no planet would ever resist a fleet of ships in orbit. It would be suicide.
The "Surface to Air Missile" is a good option but beyond what Kwok would want to do for Balance Mod.
Ground fighters don't need more than two engines to outrun any troops. I have to confess I don't have any experience fighting large fighters against large troops. Small troops are what's really bad since they can barely fit both weapons and armor.
Bottom line -- can anyone actually claim they use troops to invade planets instead of fighters? Especially in stock where fighters are capable of taking on dreadnoughts, I can't believe troops have any chance.
Re: Troops need balancing
Weapon Platforms can target Fighters with PD in ground combat - which they can't do against fighters. This makes it better to have either troops or a mix of fighters and troops.
Fighters have a better evasion bonus since they're much faster and can maneuver more easily.
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Re: Troops need balancing
That's what I was wondering too. Didn't want to stray too far OT, but all I could find was several update topics listing changes - nothing about the original mod.
I've always used troops to invade, except for a couple of experiments. I kinda limit myself to 2 fighters, and always include troops because I find the concept of conquest by fighters very distasteful. It's contrary to history and almost anything I can imagine.
Only a very low tech group can be intimidated into surrender by a "demonstration of force", and even then they'll frequently work in secret to get rid of invaders.
But the whole deal of a single battle for a single settlement resolving the matter is quite a stretch. Planets are big - even the smallest ones would have dozens of settlements.
Re: Troops need balancing
The ground combat mod expands ground combat. Instead of just troops (and fighters), you have tanks, infantry, artillery and air support. In theory you need a combined arms approach - a little of each will do better than all of one. In practice the balance still isn't quite right but it's getting there.
Note that it is based purely on stock and as such the AI is still thick. I'm working on getting it to build more units. However, I've included lots of notes for those who want to add it into their favourite mod.
Re: Troops need balancing
That's perfect. That's just the kind of "drawback for fighters but not troops" that I was looking for. I thought of suggesting flak cannons for troops but I didn't think it would be appropriate. Weapons platforms are the perfect place for them.
I didn't realize weapons platforms could do that, because my friend wasn't using point defense and the Jraenar weren't using weapons platforms. I guess anyone who destroys the weapons platforms before they invade is going to think fighters rock and troops suck.
Re: Troops need balancing
Ground Combat mod compatible with BM?
Re: Troops need balancing
Say Kwok - This is interesting. Is the ground combat mod compatible with the BM? Sounds like a pretty cool combination. As it is, there's not a lot in ground combat to keep the interest level up.
Re: Troops need balancing
It is not natively compatible, no. The AI would need to be changed or it would never use the new stuff.
Re: Troops need balancing
Thats what I would have thought too.
Re: Troops need balancing
Pity. Just improving ground combat wouldn't be enough of an improvement for me to go back and put up with all the weaknesses of the stock game. It would make a great BM enhancement though.
Re: Troops need balancing
I did have plans for improving the mechanics of ground combat by spreading out structures and increasing the size of the ground combat map. It should help limit situations where troops become entrapped by buildings or other troops.
I'm also eager to add some new troop design type designations for the AI to mix things up a bit.
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Re: Troops need balancing
That's great news! The Norak shipset features 'bots for troops and they can't fit between buildings.
I had no idea the map could be modded. If you could also limit the outer edge boundary (the out-of bounds area troops can't enter) this might allow them to pick off crippled units just outside the border.
Fighters which are crippled at the start of combat aren't deployed in the normal field, but I've seen them outside the border more than once. They don't deserve to be immune to attack, but when they are it creates a perpetual stalemate situation which is actually an indirect victory for the defense.
I know it's not your job to debug the game, but it would make things less frustrating and more fun. This boundary's only purpose is to keep combatants on the field, so it needn't be so vast.
Re: Troops need balancing
85% to defense may not be the exact number, that might lead to battles lasting forever. I'd be willing to test it. And you'd also want to beef up the Ground Cannon so that troops would be able to kill each other, but fighters would have a hard time. You can really push the Ground Cannon because it's purely troop-on-troop. It's too short range to hit fighters, and you don't have to worry about it being unbalanced against ships.