GP Weapons. AC, Meson |
I was curious if anyone thinks this is a GOOD idea.
My premise, as too many have heard before, is that the AI doesn't handle specialist anyhting particularly well, and one way to assist that is to allow it general-purpose items and ships.
If you want to play Rock-Scissors-Paper against the AI, you'll win. if you want it to have a fighting chance, however...
The first was FallenHaven's AUTOCANNON. In short, this modifies the DUC to fire like an A-10's weapon: bursts of hyper-velocity hyper-dense projectiles; the idea being that this is dangerous not only to ships but to seekers and fighters - thus general purpose, yet not so good for any as a more specialized weapon...
and the result is that AI armed with this weapon is never so ill-prepared as what we are accustomed to, particularly against the 2 most common game-breakers in the early game: Long-Range seekers, and Fighters.
The AI loves the "SITTING DUC" gunship - when the guns are alittle more flexible, the AI is a little less at a loss.
In fact, the AI ships FIGHT you like mad - and it is particularly appropriate for the AI strategy of "Charge!!!".
As the game progresses, the AI moves on to APB as it's default weapon.
At least it progresses. The AI's weapon choice, I mean.
But i was thinking how to extend my generalist principle.
And i realized that the Meson vs. beam discussion echoed in many ways the discussion i was having (with those who could care less) about DUC vs. DU-AC...
the two weapons are so similar - but should they be?
I was considering Modding the Meson to be the 'AC' of Energy weapons - not only to provide a later general weapon the AI can lean on, but to differenciate between the weapons. A matter of flavor - and providing options.
I was curious if anyone thought that was interesting or worthwhile, or even htought Meson and Beam are too similar.
opinions, comments? (other than "Shut Up, Badger?")
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
I've not really run across any AI ships with meson beams mounted on them (BM mod 1.03 and patch 1.25) in my games. As I had mentioned to you earlier, I've only seen a few older satellites armed with the AC. It seems the weapon of choice for the AI is Anti-proton beams and Anti-matter torpedoes (I think thats the torp they use...red one...or maybe its a plasma torpedo.) At least I can happily say that I have found a few designs out there that mount more than 1 PD gun and every one I have come across is at least level 3.
I think you have the right idea but I think the AI has actually gone and chosen the APB as it's weapon of choice. The only other weapons I have seen are the racial weapons, usually shard cannons and the temporal cannons.
Meson vs APBeam
i think you may have missed the part where i said the AI switches it's default from DUCannon to APBeam later in the game.
at least Beam can target fighters, so thats an improvement.
And you're playing Balance, which is fixing the problems i'm trying to fix, but in different ways. In fact, i don't see that much racial weapons in the stock games I've played 9see the forum on intersting AI discoveries, part2- the abiddon were using APB despite having a superior racial beamish thingie).
As I was saying, I would have to convince the AI to switch its default from Beam to MesonBlaster.
Even if not, the 2 weapons are still too similar in my opinion - why have 2 weapons so nearly identical?
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
I have to admit, I'm not sure on the stats of the APB as I usually just stick to my temporal weapons and CSM's. I don't even think I've ever mounted a torp much less bothered to research them. From the space simulations that I've run, it appears that the APB has a longer range than the MB, though don't quote me on that as I haven't maxed out their levels yet.
And I think you're right, I think I did miss the bit about where you wrote the AI switches from AC's to APB's.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
I prefer anyone who mods AI scripts that influence ship designs do so in a way that limits them to fairly quick recharge weapons. If they use Heavy weapons, I prefer them to reload quickly as it would benefit them better with their charge strategy they always use. Longer reload weapons require a zig zag movement pattern of attack for optimized use at longer ranges... Or the with-holding of fire until at the closest effective range. Generally, very long reload timed weapons shouldnt ever be used by the majority of AI unless someone knows how to code their attack patterns and strategy to get the most out of it.
As far as modding them all to use DUCs or variations of, I hope that doesnt happen, as I rather enjoy variety in enemy ship design.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson vs. APBeam
hmmn...
Once again, I think perhaps the post wasn't fully read...
a side effect of being so long winded I suppose...
I think you mis-understood, Dizzy, that i was observing the AI's DEFAULT weapon of choice at low techs is DUC, and that switches at higher techs to APBeam.
I assume you misunderstood, rather than simply didn't notice, even part of a single game, how heavily it favors the DUC. surely you wondered?
Anyone who has noticed this is also no doubt aware that alot of the problems the AI has in the early game is related to the DUC being a specialty weapon, and the AI not properly covering this vulnerability...
Kwok and Fh both try to correct this. 1.26 is going to try to fix this. I am suggesting Another way to fix this vulnerability.
Before DEBATING ITS EFFECT; TRY the AC fix, is all I can ask.
If you want the early game AI to FIGHT, this gives it a weapon it CAN use effectively.
Because it WILL use the DUC, and it CAN'T use that effectively.
So - let's not re-invent the wheel, I was hoping to go forward... so let me move to the 2nd part of Dizzy's comment!
Wow!
Wow!
i tried to explain teaching the AI "serpentine" tactics - which is more or less what you describe - to an AI modder and [i] got laughed at [/].
That is SO FAR out of my region of capacity, I gave up the concept -
I am MUCH better at being resourceful -using whats about - than making from scratch.
So: I absolutely agree - the Meson would be the high-tech version of AC, just as in the game, ALREADY,
the APBeam replaces the DUC as the AI DEFAULT weapon of choice.
Kwok was just discussing with me the exceptions certain races have.. but again, I said DEFAULT.
I'm sorry: what i absolutely agree with is that the AI needs a RELIABLE, General-purpose, basically FOOLPROOF weapon -
I think the meson would be that, differentiated - thus killing two birds with one stone - making 2 nearly-identical techs DISTINGUISHABLE being the other 'bird'.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
Cap. Kwok made a very good work with Meson/APB:
- Meson Blasters are smaller and short ranged, allowing a lot of firepower at close ranges.
- APB have long range and reduced negative bonuses for distance, working nicely as your Foolproof weapon.
That´s why I love BM.
I´ve told it like a thousand times: Forget about stock, it is so unbalanced that it should be considered a bug.
Post number 100!!!!
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
Ok, I guess my 1st part was mis-typed. So ignore. I'm glad someone is working on better AI implementation of weapons and strategies. If we can just get the AI to stop moving thru warp points one ship at a time now...
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
how ironic!
i was going on about that earlier today!
What IS that?
i asked kwok about it, go to the interesting ai discovery thread if you care.
i just couyldn't figure out WHY those lone ships never DO any thing.
The answer will disgust you.
EVERYONE EXCUSE GRENDEL!
He's smart - he just plays multiplayer and so doesn't fully appreciate how the AI handles long-range weapons in tactical.
Charge charge charge, i know i know i know
I think the boys are working on that one. Until then , foolproof meeans, really good rapid-fire point-blank weapon of fiery human-player killiness...
1.25 bug ? meson /APb
Just as i said i was done with the forum:
started a new game to test these and noticed something i never would have in my old one -
the apd/mesons are firing at range? 30?
i htought they were supposed to be MINIMUM 90
i glanced at the formula...
I'm rusty so it will take me a minute, i'll even have to look this up.
isi t a flaw in the iif fuction?
no i hadn't changed anything yet.
if i corrupted a file i'd expect more than these two.
anyone else seeing these?
the prob is a truly new player wouldn't have NOTICED that, b/c they haven;t seen APB before.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
The min function in the stock file is used to set the MAX range.
It goes like this: If the range is above X, subtract 10000 from the damage.
Where X is either 90 or a value set by the level of the component, whichever is elss.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
Are you telling me the APB & Mesons were SUPPOSED to come at me with a range of 30?
they switched from Cannon, WHY?
I actually saw my automove frigate PARTHIAN these poor chumps! - not with a missile -
accidnet of the AC is actually HAS an Optimum range, so i watched my ship basically "serpentine" to stay out of reach of 2 APBeam destroyers...
who, that day, didnt do the destroying.
it was a legitimate "Parthian" kill, except:
they wee higher tech and got punished for it...
Maybe i've never seen level 1(or very low- each ship was different) APBeam before?
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
Stock APBs start at range 30, yeah.
..needless to say you want to level them up fairly fast. 
DUCs aren't much better; they start at range 40.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
Let me see... "really good", "rapid fire", "point blank weapon of fiery human-player killiness"... 
You don´t want a "foolproof" weapon, you want a phoking BFG!!!
First, compare basic AC with basic DUC:
-AC makes +2X damage.
-AC has +10% firerate.
-AC weights 33% less (20 kt vs 30 kt for DUC).
-AC has about +40% to hit bonus.
-AC has +20 range.
-AC is cheaper.
Furthermore, AC is much better than Meson/APB...
The problem with modifying weapons/components in a game as complex as SEV is to keep the balance after changes. Upgrading DUC with autocannon will surely
solve a lot of AI troubles... Unbalancing even more the game (specially in stock).
But the Mighty Banana Republik comes to the rescue!!!
Our wonderful scientist have modded the basic DUC to adapt it to badger´s petitions:
Name := Banana Splatter Cannon (modified Depleted Uranium Cannon)
Description := Medium range cannon which fires large depleted uranium shells.
Picture Number := 114
Maximum Level := 100
Tonnage Space Taken Formula := 30
Tonnage Structure Formula := 30
Cost Minerals Formula := 100 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 10)
Cost Organics Formula := 0
Cost Radioactives Formula := 5
Supply Amount Used Formula := 2
Ordnance Amount Used Formula := 1
Can Be Placed On Vehicle Types := Ship, Base, Satellite, Weapon Platform, Drone
Can Be Placed In Ship Sections := Inner Hull, Outer Hull
Component Type List := Technological
General Group := Weapons
Custom Group := 0
Number Of Requirements := 1
Requirements Evaluation Availability := AND
Requirements Evaluation Allows Placement := TRUE
Requirements Evaluation Allows Usage := TRUE
Requirement 1 Description := Empire must have at least tech level 1 in Projectile Weapons.
Requirement 1 Formula := Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Projectile Weapons") >= (1 + ([%Level%] - 1))
Number Of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Ordnance Storage
Ability 1 Description := Provides storage for [%Amount1%] units of ordnance.
Ability 1 Scope := Space Object
Ability 1 Range Formula := 0
Ability 1 Amount 1 Formula := 20
Ability 1 Amount 2 Formula := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Delivery Type := Projectile
Weapon Target Type List := Ship, Base, Planet, Fighter, Satellite, Drone, Seeker
Weapon Damage Type Formula := "Normal"
Weapon Space At Range Distance Increment := 10.0
Weapon Space Min Damage At Range := 0.0
Weapon Space Max Damage At Range := 0.0
Weapon Space To Hit Modifier At Range := 0.0
Weapon Space Min Damage Modifier Formula := (10 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 0)) - (([%Range%] / 10) * 0.00) - iif([%Range%] > Min(60, (([%Level%] - 1) * 10)
+ 20), 10000, 0)
Weapon Space Max Damage Modifier Formula := (10 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 5)) - (([%Range%] / 10) * 0.00) - iif([%Range%] > Min(60, (([%Level%] - 1) * 10)
+ 20), 10000, 0)
Weapon Space To Hit Modifier Formula := 25 - [%Range%]
Weapon Reload Rate MS Formula := 1000
Weapon Display Type := Bolt
Weapon Space Display Effect Name := Bolt 2
Weapon Ground Display Effect Name := Bolt 2
Weapon Explosion Effect Name := [Random Specific Type] Weapon Explosion
Weapon Sound Effect Name := Depleted Uranium Cannon
Weapon Bolt Speed := 0.0
What is this? just a DUC with some changes. It makes half damage, but has double fire rate. +25 to hit, but at the cost of -20 range. An it has the ability to hit seekers. A "foolproof rapidfire very efficient weapon at point blank range". And IMO, it should keep balance when compared with other components.
Having in mind its rate of fire and to hit bonus, it makes a very good weapon vs fighters & seekers. But its reduced range is a drawback VS CSM and more advanced weapons. A fair deal, IMO.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Bananas are an universal concept,
They are one of the cornerstones of this existence.
Like gravity, or the speed of light, the entire universe submits to their rules.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson > Brakes!
...***screech!!!!***
Slow down there, banana-lover!
You don´t want a "foolproof" weapon, you want a phoking BFG!!!
No,
I want a generalist weapon that is not AS GOOD at either anti-ship OR point-defense as the specialized weapons are, respectively. Point-Blank because thas how the AI likes to fight. And I want this to give the AI -as it stands- a fighting chance.
IN THEORY, the AC, not being mountable, wasn't supposed to be able to stand up to the larger weapons, and Does NOT have the to-hit bonuses that dedicated PD components do.
i believe we have agreed the AutoCannon is COMPLETELY unbalanced OUTSIDE of IRM-
which just underlines the importance of PLAYTESTING -
I knew something was wrong when the Ac gunboats kept tearing apart much larger ships.
the key to that was that in irm, the AC tends to bounce off armor..
now -
a SEPERATE discussion is that i think DEPLETED URANIUM (or crystal, or )shells should have armor-piercing abilities
... i suggested the KINETIC damage type that pierces armor but isn't as good at shields, and worth a lot less for bombardment
(an accidental side-effect I'm seeing in the game i play is the AC ships can't bombard b/c its seen as PD weapon - didn't make planets a target).-
and yes, the AC is unquestionably better than the low-tech meson or APBeam-
but, check the posts by phoenix-D : so is regular DUC
in fact, another player pointed out to me -and i just saw in the newgame i started to play test -
that the AI seems to switch its default to APBeam when it becomes available, EVEN THOUGH it is a much inferior weapon at that point.
THAT in turn goes back to the AI scripts - an' is a whole 'nother discussion - the ai isn't EVALUATING, its following a script 9they're doing the best they can with what they have at this time ).
but in sum:
you KNOW i don't want a perfect gun
and you KNOW we had already agreed the AC as it stands was too powerful
and you KNOW i wnated it further playtested...
And other than trying to make me look even stupider than usual (did i needd help in that regard?), i don't see that this had any point at ALL.
Yes; you can say i SHOULD have realized that porting it straight from IRM without the armor being considered wwould be a balance nightmare, but really,
YEs i should have - but EVERYONE overlooks something.
You KNOW i wanted it playtested BECAUSE I know that changes things changes the Balance..
WASN'T THAT THE WHOLE POINT?
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson > Apologies.
First apology: I misunderstood some points in our last conversation, specially in regards of how powerful AC is.
Second apology: I thought that a comment as excessive as "phoking BFG!!!" could be understood as a joke. We´ve been using lots of jokes in our conversations, I expected this to be understood in the same line.
My intention was to state how difficult is to make a good overall weapon to be used by the AI while respecting game balance.
I never thought You are stupid, and my intention never was to make You look stupid.
I spent some time thinking about your foolproof weapon, trying to adapt DUC to that idea, while respecting game balance. I made the changes and posted them, hoping to be doing something useful. The other comments weren´t neccesary. I thought they could be fun, just like most of our usual comments.
I didn´t expect to piss You this way. I suppose that I´ll have to avoid joking in the future, until I have a better knowledge of this language.
In any case, my apologies.
> Is further creation pointless?
...that to me is the real issue.
Any apology by Grendel, accepted, and sorry i took it in such a way as to be needed.
i'd like to end THAT nasty misunderstanding by saying:
IMO, -and i liked the humor-
WITHOUT saying that it was already known AC is too powerful outside of its home Mod, it sounds to me as if I am being ridiculed - or at least that is how i took it.
i see a larger issue in this however, not just miscommunication or hurt feelers , "Awwww...",
but rather: is there any point to even trying.
That came up in another thread today, with someone who has been playing MUCH longer, and I'd LIKE to think things AREN"T at a dead end.
Another fellow pointed out a more recent change was becasue of exactly these kinds of discussions.
I would like to think that there is not only things left to fix, but different ways to fix them.
without meaning any offense, grendel has said how he thinks Balance handles these issues WELL.
You will forgive me that I Do Not think, despite Kwok's improvements (which are MANY!) and positive influence on even those who want to take things in another direction (fallenH,as ONE exmaple), that he has 'solved' everyhting, or that his solutions are for everyone. I DO wish more of them would find their way into STOCK.
Nor do i WANT to give up on stock, I would like to have my own mod, yes, but REALLY what i have been trying lately is SMALL easy fixes for people playing stock to have a better game - and mostly, that means the AI not being a helpless puppy...
LAST BUT NOT LEAST:
the Meson and APBeam have been established to be similar enough that it has OLD forums about it - i realize this -
I made this forum for if anyone wants to discuss how to
differentiate the two in a way that can be consrtuctive to the rest of the game.
Re: >Duc taken by enemy intel agents> Embarrassing
Yes, its true,
amongst all the confusion it appears that our technical specifications for the Duc-13 "Sitting DUC" big-clumsy-shell-shooter has been compromised by enemy intel agents...
It is suspected that they used parasite-given shapeshifting powers to infiltrate deep into the laboratories of The Order, as we discovered in the place of the study prototype,
A banana-splatter gun ?
so, uhm...
Mr. Dear Honorable Duly-Elected ParasiteHost President Grendelio, could i borrow a copy of the DUC data file
Re: > Is further creation pointless?
Nor do i WANT to give up on stock, [/i]
I tend to agree, while all the Mods and the people who take the time to make them are great. Stock is where the improvements are needed. It is the core game that people get initated into, so it should show the most promise.
- Give me Liberty or Give me Death -
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
And the core game can only be changed by MM in that sense..
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
i'd LIKE to think the ideas that get banged about here (and some, torpedoed) just might occaisionally get noticed.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
Pointless? Hardly. Not likely to be included in stock, though. MM doesn't read forums very much from what I understand.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
So is the sense of having an offical forum if no one with the power to change things reads them. That's one thing I love about Stardock, they monitor and read the forums, and occasionally reply. it has to be easier then getting 100 emails a day
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
which is why we're back to you having to co-ordinate your team to develop the Xpansion pack,
Complete with non-puppy AI and New Vicious alien Races!
hey, total war pulled it off.
write a business proposal to MM.
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson
Sure, right after I finish my 4 year contract with my current employer. But when I do get my team together, "The Badger Bashers". The AI will go from puppy to pit bull.
-When faced with rows and rows of razor sharp teeth it natural to run
Re: GP Weapons. AC, Meson > tests
Well, in other forums i discussed range and how that lead me to modify the weapon files to represent something that fires in a burst - although this was for the autocannon, this same mechanic can be applied to the Meson.
The Meson Blaster:
Medium range meson cannon which fires tunneling mesons in cohesive bursts.
So- are tunneling Mesons armor-piercing? Just Curious.
Back to the point - we have a BURST weapon, which loans itself to the "general purpose" short-range role.
Handling burts by damage randomization, thats on another post. If anyone is interested, I can post the formula.
so in theory, we have a winner.
2 issues remain:
How do we differentiate the Meson and APB?
Other than a slight damage difference, they have the same range maximum, and same firing rate.
I ma afraid to make the APbeam slower b/c of how it stacks to other weapons...
Lastly, we ahve the AI issue.
i happen to know that merely switching their ORDER in the component file will "trick" the AI into placing mesons
(well, it works for ac's) and i could trick it again by switching their level requirement:)
but then the player would end up with the opposite research, too...
anyone feel up to correcting the AI to research Meson / energy Pulse? because i am NOT comfortable touching THOSE scripts yet.
GP Weapons. AC, Meson - i forgot..
to ask
how am i going to convince the AI to change its default tech from beam to meson?