Dam the Torpedoes? |
Am i missing something?
I do not see any advantage to developing the torpedos (advanced military sciences:1 benefit)...
rather than simplyincrease one's capital ship missile.
i even hae that name .. its a hold over from Starfire Empires, Kidz!
but how are torpedo's better than csm's to justify the invested research?
And i assume this is a bug:
i get all 3 torpedo's at once..
it would only seem logical that Quantum torpedos require the quantum drive, and anti-matter the anti-matter (i'm sorry, contra-terra) drives/technology,
yet i invariably get all 3 before i'm anywhere close to out of ion technology...
Am i alone on these..."observations"...?
Stock torpedoes are underwhelming
The only thing anti-matter torpedoes have on CSMs is a small damage advantage. However, their range is only 60 ls, compared to 160 ls of the CSMs. The torpedo also moves 10km/s slower, and so is easier to shoot down with PD.
Quantum torpedoes have 40 ls farther range, 20 more damage, and can track. Unless the other tech requisite is enabled again, this makes AM torpedoes useless, and Quantum torpedoes not much better.
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Watch for my mod - codename: Dimensions - coming by Summer, 2007!
Torpedoes!
i would think anti- matter torpedo's would require a-m engines and thus be that much faster than cap ship msl's
quantums, that much faster in turn
and lets add photon torpedos as well?
each faster-moving torpedo would if nothing else be that much harder to shoot down...
i would think each warhead would be progressively more damaging as well?
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
CSM = "ion Torpedo"
[ for that matter, shouldn't the weapon first available when all youy have is ion engines be therefore considered an "ion torpedo"?
or there should be at least such a thing
an ion propulsion weapon would make a joke out of chemical-propulsion waepons...."legacy technology" to the starfaring races...
so for intents and purposes, let us assume the csm as a starting tech IS ion-driven since that what avilable...
and go from there in speed calculations?
perhaps warhead and proulsion are two seperate tech "lines" and where they intersperce determines which weapons you get?
fusion ...
next anti- matter next quantum...
etc.
b]Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...[/b]
Good ideas
I like these ideas. Too bad we can't design ordnance in stock, but perhaps by using small drones instead, a mod could make a more realistic large missile system.
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Watch for my mod - codename: Dimensions - coming by Summer, 2007!
ION engines are real, and that's the problem
Do you know what an "Ion" Engine really is? Rocket Propulsion makes a total joke out of Ion technology for short term. Ion technology allows longer accellerations with less fuel. So over the course of a star system Ion torps would be killer, but we are talking about small stelliar distances, which means the most acceleration in the shortest time.
an ion engine "really" is nothing...
since its purelt theoretical to the best of my knowledge
they continue to discuss utilizing them for stellar exploration...
but in the meantime,
for game purposes, and in fact, reality,
i think we can assume that the technology, ONCE UTILIZED, will quickly surpass chemical propulsion
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
Real Ion Engines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Engine
Last part, Low accelerations, means that over short distances, they are moving too slowly to have alot of speed. Chemical reaction drives still provide higher accelerations over short distances.
Ion engines are real 
Just hoping *** 2 variables***
someone might reconsider the tech tree a tiny bit since we are discussing 2 variables:
propulsion and ordinance
the plasma missile for example is an ordinance
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
They're real and have been used
They've actually already used Ion engines for space craft, but only for flights specifically desgined to test the technology as far as I can tell: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/nstar/ionengine.html
I'm sure Ion engines will get much better in time, even to the point of surpasing standard chemical propulsion in time. Especially by 2400...
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Watch for my mod - codename: Dimensions - coming by Summer, 2007!
I stand corrected!
riptokus and i are having exactly this discussion on the side right now.
You and I agree ions WILL surpass, he believes no-chemical will stay better in excelleration.
for the sake of discussion, let us say he is correct-
chemical STAYS better for acceleration.
Thus an non-obsolete technology...
THAT gives us a useful definition of missile versus torpedo:
the csm (or any missile) is a fast-accelerating(chemical) seeker
The TORPEDO:
Ion
Anti-Matter (Contra-Terra)
Photon
Quantum
Would be a seeker with a LONGER range and increasing speeds...
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
Agreed. The CSM would by
Agreed. The CSM would by it's very nature be limited to a certain range, with the others getting faster the further they go, and being orders of magnitude further distance then equal chemical reaction missiles. Ion Engines of EQUAL development should be 100% further distance then a standard CSM, and likewise increases for each next level.
And the warhead on a Chemical Reaction drive can just as easily go on an Ion missile, so they should do at least the same damage.
I feel that having the torpedos just having super-range and making CSMs more of a medium range weapon would be more accurate. Torps should go slow on launch and accelerate slowly but have an enormous range, CSMs should be moderate-long range, Projectile should have moderate-short, and beam short. That's how it should be.
Agreed! Exactly!... Except
That unguided projectiles EFFECTIVELY are the shortest-range weapons...(this is one of few things i think stock got right-- watch duc in tactical combat !)
and should be.
simply becasue without the ability to change course, a target with ANY mobility becomes impossible to hit at practically any range whatsoever...(consider beam speed vs. projectile speed- that determines EFFECTIVE range)
several sci-fi series have commented on this already- its the same as rockets vs. missiles...
unguided weapons are a fly-by; a strafe attack.
For dogfights.
(kwonk, i believe it was, pointed out that even non-fighters effectivley 'dogfight' at the speeds we are discussing)
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
Well Yes, but once launched
Well Yes, but once launched out they will travel at the speed they are launched at until something affects them. Their Effective range should be short, but they should have a very long max range, that's why I say Moderate short instead of just short. Beams suffer something similar where they loose cohesion from particles that might be in the way, so they would be, to my thought anyway, Pure short.
So, given a scale of 1-10 on distance
Beams 1-3
Projectile 1-5
CSM 4-7
Torps 6-10
With Projectile having the gentlest curve in damage dropoff and beams the steepest, CSMs being unchanged, and torps ACTUALLY INCREASING damage with distance (They get faster, they hit harder!)
well
they handled that effectively i think with the damage drop off in beams and blasters, etc...
projectiles should have NO dropoff in damage - my opinion-
unless you want to reperesent spread within a cluster/salvo
but look try this...
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
Everyone Try This Please? ONE THING STOCK GOT RIGHT
In any 'stock' game you are in..
Just take your fast little frigate or fighters..
preferably with beam waepons
go into TACTICAL aginst the "i love DUC" computer
fly in fast, circles at the edge of your weapons range BUT within his reach for point of this experiment
watch the duc shells
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT SHOULD BE HAPPENING IF SHIPS FIRE UNGUIDED PROJECTILES AT DISTANT, FAST-MOVING TARGETS
For what its worth, that is my opinion
In one of the mods, the DUC shells appear to BEND their path and TRACK your ship. So - try stock.
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
Stock has that problem too
Actually, when a projectile weapon like DUCs track your ship that's because the numbers say they hit. Whenever SE:V decides a direct fire projectile has hit it will twist reality in such a way as to force it to collide. If the projectiles don't track the ship, they would've missed anyway.
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Watch for my mod - codename: Dimensions - coming by Summer, 2007!
Are you sure?
Asking, not arguing - b/c i know you look at the code i haven't looked at code since i was programming data bases in the bad OLD days...
but i have NEVER seen the shells BEND like that in stock- i can check again but...
i am ALMOST certain they don't.
Dang it... nbow i gotta load up my near-forgotten stock game and pick a fight to see...
geeeeezzz![b]Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...[/b]
what is the fastest torpedo
what is the fastest torpedo type? Or are they all the same speed?
CSM vs. Quantum torps
The other 2 torps, imho, cannot compete with the CSM, but the Quantum can, for one simple, overlooked reason: Cost.
In Stock a level 100 CSM and level 100 Quantum torp both do the same damage, but the CSM has almost double the range.
HOWEVER, the CSM will cost around 5000 minerals EACH, with a maintenance cost of around 1250 per turn.
The Quantum torp has shorter range, but only costs around 800/200!
A cruiser with 10 CSM instead of 12 Quantums (quantums take less space) can cost 40,000 minerals more to build and 10,000 more minerals every single turn for each cruiser.
Re: CSM vs. Quantum torps +Gamma Pulse+
The Quantum also fires faster, if you can get close enough to make that matter- of course an equal speed CSM ship won't LET you if properly run...
gamma Pulse torpedoes are also slightly harder to shoot down than csm's or other torpedoes...
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
Re: what is the fastest torpedo type?
The three basic torpedoes, quantum, gamma-p, A-M, all have the same speed rating as the CSM: 0.04
the Q.T. shares CSM turn radius, the other two don't list one.
I think I have propsed a solution to this- i hope at least someone will be interested. It is in the Torpedo <> missiles forum: http://www.spaceempires5.com/en-US/node/2260#comment-12407
Anyone who wants power; by definition, cannot be trusted with it...
dam the Torpedos? ..came up again.
I believe the Q. torp bug got fixed, right?
This all got hashed pretty well and tied into the whole PD "parthian" discussion of ranges.
generally, the AI defaults to the CSM for such weapons and the DUC (later APBeam) for close-in.
One of the big discussions in mods was about such issues - each seems to have a different way of handling thi s- but if it keeps coming up, chances are its NOT your imagination.
Torpedoes
At one point the Quantum Torpedoes did require Quantum Engines in stock. Anyway, at the very least I thought they should be at least staggered in their availability.
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