Changes to colony techs |
I feel that colony techs which are expensive to research even for a research fiend like my self should do more than they do now. Initially I researched them because not knowing better I felt it stood to reason that tl2 should be better than tl1. Well it is but not, indeed no were near enough to justify its 200k research point cost. There is little reason to research beyond TL1 in any colony tech
I have suggested increasing the capacity of the colony for facilities as the tech level increases but am given to understand that that wont work, I would like it to, and would also suggest that the Colony should gain something else out of increased tech which both me would represent better basic infrastructure. Perhaps more damage capacity bonuses to production and population or the like.
What do you think?
I don't usually go beyond
I don't usually go beyond lvl 1 in colony, I don't know if there's a point. I don't even think there is more than one level in Balance mod (not sure). Save the research for colonizing another planet type instead.
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The ink of the scholar is worth a thousand times more than the blood of a martyr.
You could take the colony
You could take the colony tech in two different dirrections or both. Miniturization, and increaseing storage. I send out colony ships with satalites or weapon plantforms (along with populations) That way when it drops it already has some units on the planet. Another good one to send along is troops. You could dramatically increase the storage and decrease the size so that it could be put on a small ship chassis.
SEV, more than a feeling.
Balanced Mod
Not being afiliated with the balanced mod in any way
(except for the fact that I use it in all my games)
I would point out that the balanced mod has taken the
aproach of having 1 Level of each colony tech, with a very heafty price tag. To be honest I never saw the benefit of
having extra levels and do recall cursing when I once accidnetly researched Rock colonisation to level 2 when I had intended to research Ice colonisation level 1.
Colony Techs
I'd like to see the first level cost high for colonization techs, followed by cheaper upgrades but unfortunately that's not possible (or at least I haven't tried any formula for tech cost in TechAreas.txt) at this time - So I just went with the 1 level in the mod. Although I suppose you could always make a new tech area that requires the main colonization tech and can be used to boost the colony module's attributes...hmm...
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damn you emma for texting me at silly o'clock in the morning
Like having a super colony tech, that allows you to build a universal coloniser (UC) once you have all 3 colony techs 
Make it the size of 2 "normal colony modules", or big enough to fit on a colony ship.
Or you could have it unlock a new colony ship hull as well as the UC which would take the UC, all the command gubbins and sensors, a couple of cargo containers and more engines than a standard colony ship, allowing it the same speed as a frigate
I like this idea So will sum it up as I am not sure I am making sense.
Get all 3 colony types lvl 1 (no more higher levels)
unlock new tech - Universal coloniser
lvl 1 UC - Universal coloniser module (allows you colonise all three planet types).
- Advanced Colony Hull (ACH) design, big enough to take the UC and command gubbins and some engines but not max amount, put a standard component layout there for the AI to force it to make these 1 way and give them no choice.
lvl 2 UC - ACH 2, bigger ship which allows more engines so faster.
lvl 3+ UC - ACH 3+, bigger again allows for max speed and enough space to add extra components such as cargo, more supplies, armour e.t.c.
This could be a mid tech cost (say the same as huge hull), yes thats cheap for what it gives, but you pay the real expense of this in researching the other 2 colony types to the one you get at the start of the game. You could also make a certain hull size required to get the ACH, but I don't think that should be needed.
I'd be tempted to maintain
I'd be tempted to maintain Balance's single level of tech for each colony type, and maybe allow the storage of Colony Modules to improve as a benefit of improving the Storage technology area. This would make the Storage tech a little more tempting and would make the RP cost of improving Colony Module storage more appropriate.
Another idea would be if TL2 of each colony tech would allow an advanced colony module which (if at all implementable) would allow Planet Value Improvement or Atmosphere Conversion to take place on the new world being colonised. This would have to be implemented via either convincing the colony module to deploy a facility upon being used, or getting the colony module to create a planet-wide effect upon deployment. I have no idea if either is possible! If it were achievable, it would presumably be dependent on having the relevant planet improvement techs. This would at least keep the benefits of researching colony TL2 within the realms of colony improvement, and has a firm relationship to existing SCI-FI, i.e. Aliens' "Shake and Bake" colonies for starters!
What if you had an expensive
What if you had an expensive one-level tech area for each planet type, and then a cheap multi-level Colonization tech area, and in order to get, say, Rock Colony Module level 5, you'd have to get Rock Colonization level 1 and Colonization level 5? The Colonization tech area could then provide all the improvements for colony modules - miniaturization, storage, whatever. (Personally I think miniaturization is better since SE5 has population automigration, rendering additional cargo storage on colony ships rather pointless for most races 
) This is the way I'm doing it in the 21st Century Mod, though I might also have something in there to discourage colony tech trading... maybe the planet type colonization techs are multi-level and not quite so expensive, but the initial modules are really huge? I'll have to consider that if I haven't done that already... Kwok, you might know, is there a way to get an empire's native planet type through script? I know that Golden Eclipse has an interesting colonization model where you start with level 5 colonizers in your native type, but you have to research geophysics or something to research the other ones' tech areas... Kevin had something along the lines of the prerequisite for a colony module being a check against the natives type OR a check against the research, but I don't remember if he was able to use the natives type itself or if he had to resort to racial traits ala SE4's Colony Tech Mod...
Miniaturization
BTW.. miniaturization is an easy, and workable mod, I have already done it in my personal mod for other components. For those interested the tonnage formula I use is as follows:
X - iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 1, T1, iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 2, T2, iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 3, T3, iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 4, T4, iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 5, T5, 0)))))
X = The initial tonnage of the component
T1,T2 etc... = the amount subtracted from the component for each Minituaruzation level.
Feel free to use it.
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It's not what you know...
It's not who you know...
It's what you know about who you know.
What...
Why use all those iffs, when a simple "x-get empire tech level*t" would do the same thing?
_______________________
There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those that understand binary, and those that don't.
Simplified
X - iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 1, T1, iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 2, T2, iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 3, T3, iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 4, T4, iif(Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") = 5, T5, 0)))))
X = The initial tonnage of the component
T1,T2 etc... = the amount subtracted from the component for each Minituaruzation level.
Feel free to use it.
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It's not what you know...
It's not who you know...
It's what you know about who you know.
Hrm...I don't like stringing a bunch of logic operators (if-then-else) together if I can help it. How about this:
Where:
o is the original component tonnage
t is the final component tonnage
m is ratio of the minituarization tech which applies
f(t) = o - iif (Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") >=1, (Get_Empire_Tech_Level("minituarization") * m), 0)
This is of course a VERY simple formula. You can add all sorts of things in there to control how much the miniturization tech applies, including scaling its effect based on the original tonnage of the component in question and performing an exponential decay curve to control the change rate. I suppose it's just a personal prefference, but I like to keep the number of iif statements down to as few as possible, and let the math do the work.
The reason I did it that way...
The reason I did it that in the mod I am working on, Miniturization can effect quite a few different components, and this allows me to control the rates in a clear and easy method for each component. And to have non-linear levels of change when desired. So for example, my Master Computer component decreases in tonnage as follows:
Lvl 0:(no mini) 40kt
Lvl 1: 30kt
Lvl 2: 20kt
Lvl 3:
Lvl 4:
Lvl 5: 10kt
I did it this way because in the case of master computers I felt it should be a bit difficult to get it all the way down to 10kt, and I felt it would be a nice reward for researching all 5 levels.
The mod is definately Beta, and still in the playing around stage, so I am open to ideas of course
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It's not what you know...
It's not who you know...
It's what you know about who you know.
You could just use a formula
You could just use a formula other than a linear one - an exponential decay would work nice for diminishing returns... The problem is of course that you would get weird numbers like 27kT for some of your levels since you didn't "hand-pick" the numbers - but you could always divide by 5 or 10, round, and multiply by 5 or 10 if it's that important...
Formula := round(40 * 0.8 ^ ([%Level%] - 1))
for instance would give:
Level 1: 40kT
Level 2: 32kT
Level 3: 26kT
Level 4: 20kT
Level 5: 16kT
Yep, I did something like that
Before I decided to use a Minituarization tech, I did something similar to that method, using 40 - ( Int(([%Level%] - 1) / 6) * 10) specfically for the master computer... The reason I went to the nested IIF's was for simplicity. Instead of calculating individual formulas for each component to be minituarized, I can just plug in the values that I want them to decrease by for each level. May be a but clunkier, but it is easier to implement, and would hopefully make debugging easier in the long run. I intend to experiment doing the same thing using [%amount1] etc.. soon, but I am not sure that these variables will work beyond amount2 nor if they will work in circumstances that I want.
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It's not what you know...
It's not who you know...
It's what you know about who you know.
Try a different direction
How about colony upgrades providing for more facilities, storage and/or population on a given size planet.
For breathable atmospheres:
LVL 2 Rock giving +1 facility (per planet size unit), +10% storage & pop.
LVL 3 Rock giving +2 facility (per planet size unit), +20% storage & pop.
For non-breathable atmospheres:
LVL 2 Rock giving +1 facility, +25% storage & pop.
LVL 3 Rock giving +2 facility, +50% storage & pop.
That's the only thing that would make spending the rediculus amount of points worthwhile, especially for the domed colonies.
Not Possible
Thats just not possible. Planets either are, or are not colonized; if colonized they use the "domed" or "undomed" numbers in planets.txt depending on the atmosphere and racial makeup.
What you're asking would require a code change, and would tick off a lot of people. Balance Mod's truncating to 1 tech level is the best option, IMO.
_______________________
There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those that understand binary, and those that don't.
to early to bother with this
You mean there is no way for the game to distingusih between domed and undomed colonies? That is more than a bit odd, this is something that the AI should be able to do as it affects what and how much it can produce on a planet.
This helps to explain why migration doesn't work to remove domes from planets when they have native breathers in the colony as well.
Clarification
You mean there is no way for the game to distingusih between domed and undomed colonies? That is more than a bit odd, this is something that the AI should be able to do as it affects what and how much it can produce on a planet.
This helps to explain why migration doesn't work to remove domes from planets when they have native breathers in the colony as well.
I think he meant it's not possible to do any of these "higher colonisation levels make colonies that store more" ideas. As in there's no "colony rank A", "rank B" etc where higher ranks give subtly different numbers (for domed and undomed).
All the game does is check "is it colonised?", then if it is, checks "is it domed?" to read off how much facility/storage the colony has. You'd need entirely different code to add in "what rank is it?" before "is it domed?"
heatshot too subject fielf
All the game does is check "is it colonised?", then if it is, checks "is it domed?" to read off how much facility/storage the colony has. You'd need entirely different code to add in "what rank is it?" before "is it domed?"
Nods that makes sense, then it should be fairly easy to make the game (not the AI) use migration to remove the domed population from a colony that also has a population that doesn't need domes.
All you need to do is a check in the migration script that checks is the colony domed? Does it have a population that can breath the atmosphere? If yes then do reverse migration for the domed population. Add a conditional statement that if the domed population is below X million (say 50) then the remaining population should be removed completely. Simply have the game add the population removed to the next colony where it can breath the population (or simply space it I am sure most players won't notice )
As for the ideas of super colonies, I must admit I don't like it (for Stock and stock based mods) *this is my opinion and not meant to pee any of you off who have put a load of thought into this*. I think that it will add a load of faff and frustration, will you be able to improve older colonies, if so how?
I prefer the idea of just scrapping lvls 2+ of the colonising tech. Then adding a new tech of Universal Coloniser that becomes available once you have researched each of the 3 different types. In simple mode I would make this a single lvl tech as well, with a module that will fit on a colony ship with all the usual gubbins and 1 cargo pod. I could also see a more advanced version where you have multipul levels of UC, which I have described in another post in this thread.
Going back to the idea of super colonies, I remember a B5 mod (nice idea but never got off the ground I seem to remember) for SEIV that required you to build some form of "outpost" on your colony before you could build anything else, depending on the level of "outpost" you could then build different things. Also each "outpost" generated resources and research itself before you built any other facs to improve this.
If you wanted to implement this in a mod, you could use the higher levels of Colony to get you access to better "outposts", you could put all sorts into these.... Straight off the bat I would like to suggest that each level of outpost comes with in built defences of a certain level. These "outposts" would be simple to upgrade as all they are is a specail facility that must be built before anything else is built.
Remember colony ship requirements
Do remember that colony ships "Need 50% of available space taken up by a colony module" - adjust this limit accordingly if you make a mod with miniturisation for high level colony modules.
Tie Colonization Levels To Planet Quality?
Maybe the levels of colonization modules could be tied to planet quality that it can colonize? I like the universal module as a extra step beyond the standard three (mostly for us poor human's, as it will make no difference to the AI). Something like this:
Rock Level 1 - Only Tiny and Small with at least 50% Minerals, 25% Rads, 75% Organics
Rock Level 2 - Tiny, Small, Medium with at least 40% Minerals, 20% Rads, 60% Organics
...
Rock Level X - Any Size, Any Minerals, Any Rads, Any Organics
Rock Level X + 1 - Universal Module Enabler
Ice...
Gas...
Universal 1 - Any Size, Any Minerals, Any Rads, Any Organics
This would "fix" one of the missing elements: How difficult it is to colonize lower quality planets, etc. A lot of the other suggestions could also be added in; For example, with each level the colonizer modules get smaller, etc.
Not sure if this would require core game support though (sounds like it might).
Problem with previous game save and new update & Balance Mod
I have just updated to V1.20 & 1.01 BM. When I load a save file. My ships have suddenly changed. They have war totems for example instead of armor and the engines have changed. Also I seem to have randomly aquired several new scientific developments. Any ideas
Infrastructure as A Facility
An Alternative could be to have some sort of Inrastructure facitlity which increases the capacity of the palent
I'm not certain if this is actually possible but such a facility could work by
1) Increasing the Planets maximum population (if this is possible)
2) Having Negetive Mass (hence increasign space for other facilites.
4) set a limit so that only one infrastrucute upgrade is effective per colony.
All of this may turn out to be impossible in practice as
I don't know if it is posible for a facility to increase population capacity and the underlying code may block attempts to create facilities with a negetive tonnage.
Such a facility would allow old colonies to be upgraded to a bigger capacity, and potentially higer level colony modules could automatically come with a free infrastructure facility of some level. Granted this is a place where it would be nice if the game allowed you to contrust facility with a level lower than yout current maximum.
Colony Ships Chaning planets
The planet's cannot be changed that way (with the current game).
You can have a colony module with more cargo space, or supply and ordinance (so the new front line colonies are not empty).
Basically you can make any changes that affect ships to the module, but the planets are not changed by any thing like that.
What? They ain't dead yet!
What's the hold up? It's already turn 23.
Game Breaking
IIRC, 1.0 BM and 1.01 BM were "game breaking" changes.
In essence, what has happened is that he's added new items in between lines (or removed) so that where before we had:
Tech A; Tech B; Tech C; Tech D;
now we have:
TechA; Tech C; Tech E; TechD;
Any place where "tech c" was used now points to tech E as the game points to line numbers rather than the items themselves -- i. e. you don't have "tech level 50 ships", you have "tech level 50 tech.txt line item 41".
_______________________
There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those that understand binary, and those that don't.
RE: Game Breaking
Really? Ugh... I hope that is an old code base issue...
Modding
Really? Ugh... I hope that is an old code base issue...
Thats the way the engine has been designed for forever (well, since I joined in with SEIV), I doubt its going to change. It makes a great deal of sense, when you think about it.
_______________________
There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those that understand binary, and those that don't.
Components mis-ordered etc.
It's not by line number. The items are loaded into an array, so for example the Ion Engine might be record 16 and on a ship design, each slot has the reference saying that the item it holds is 16 etc. Inserting components causes the records to shift, although appending items at the end of the file will not.
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Why version of the mod was the game started with?
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Ooops
Thanks for correcting me Kwok 
I knew it had something to do with the order of the items, at least.
_______________________
There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those that understand binary, and those that don't.
Re: Changes to colony techs
Some point out that new colony tech by default gives more storage space... but at what price? you could easily research a higher level of light ships and storage and just put a few storage bays on it... rather then dumping millions of RP to level up the colony techs...
It makes absolutely no sense in it's default form. It would however make sense for it to give some improvement...
The way I imagined it, the higher your colonization capability, the better use you can make of already colonized planets. So rather then Rock colonization 2 giving you a TL2 colony module that does more. it simply gives you an empire wide bonus to rock planets. However this would probably be hard to implement and tick people off.
Alternatives have been suggested abundantly, but really it is so much simpler to just cut it down to 1 TL. Either you can colonize them, or not. And any other improvement can easily be made into its OWN technology.
For example, the atmospheric converter bonus could be a tech which will give a component that would transform to an atmospheric converter upon colonizing a planet. Again you are opening a can of worms though... Personally I think the terraforming should be done entirely from orbit. or have a tonnage of 0KT on the planet. It simply takes way too much micromanagement to go to every one of your planets, tear down something, build an atmospheric processor, wait for it to finish, tear it down, build the next improvement, and so on... or build all three on a new planet and then come back and tear them down... the AI also does NOT use those intellegently at ALL...
Actually I have a better idea... mod all the planets to have a few more space... for example instead of 1000KT it will have 1005. And instead of 25000, 25005. And then make the various terraforming structures take 1KT each. That would allow you build them without any space issues on any planet you wish. This WILL solve a LOT of issues that currently there... yes, its not exaclty realistic. But damn it is so annoying right now where the AI cant handle them, and you have to micromange them like crazy.
I do not have a Superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
Re: Changes to colony techs
I like the idea of only 1 colony tech level. I am really, REALLY upset when I have all 3 types, then colonize a ruins planet, and my 'reward' technology is lvl 2 colony tech, when I have other techs at lvl 0.
I also like the nested idea that increases the colony module cargo capacity, at a reduced research rate.
Re: Changes to colony techs
I think it makes sense that higher level of colony tech increases storage space.
All the other cargo holding items get more space as they level up, why not the Colony items also?
As more and more advanced materials and equipment are developed, the overall size also is reduced, which frees up more space for other things.
Everything from pre-fab shelters to life support and power systems become more compact, suporting structures uses thinner yet stronger materials allowing for more potential storage space, and more efficient and more compact recycling systems, allowing for more colonists to be carried in a colony module, taking into account extra gear for extra colonists.
I do agree that perhaps the research cost per additional level could be toned down a bit.
I also like the idea of an all in one colony module. Probably more convienient/cheaper than a large frieghter turned universal colony ship.
colony tech
well, i would just strip it down lot 1 level of research.
just research it to be able to colonize the planet type, that´s it.
i can´t think of anything usefull that could be added to the tech if you research further....maybe except that the colony module could hold more cargo, but that is, as you already stated, much too expensive.