Why have bombardment weapons when regular ones do the job ?

I was looking through weapons to see how they are balanced recently. In general, all weapons increase in power by 5 damage/level, regardless of everything else. Anti-planet weapons increase by 10 damage/level, are cheap to research, and are available from the start. They are basically much faster at doing this single job.

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Give me atmopshperic manipulation cannons, or give me death!

...and Anti-Planet Warheads for Drones at Max level in stock do almost 500,000 damage - which is like wiping out only a couple sphereworld's worth of facilities in a single 20kT shot.

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Serious now, I'd say reduce the effect of damage on population (DamageTypes.txt) and kick up Bombardment Weapon's damage amounts - that should make them more useful and discourage glassing with normal weapons.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

I really don't think Duc's should be able to glass planets.. makes not sense. Imagine the supplies you'd need to take out a planet.

I suggest at least taking them out for planet attacks...

Javaslinger

I agree, vorius, this is one of the first things I thought was kinda messed up when I play. Regular ship guns can wipe out a planet quickly especially at higher levels (even more so since planet "structure hp" doesn't really level up).

I'd like to see all guns unable to harm planets, saving that role for bomber ships with their bombardment weapons. Sounds funner, better strategy.

If 158 million people can fit into a frigate-sized cargo vessel, then three DUC's on a Frigate should be able to kill them all on the ground in under a minute.

I don't see a problem here.

Cunnilingus and Psychiatry have brought us to this...

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Perhaps multiplying population HP, and the damage done by bombardment weapons by 5 might fix this problem

Making DUC's 1/5th as effective againsed the same sized planet.

This is why SEV is the modders dream, you can easaly change almost everything

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My mod changes it so that population needs 100 damage to kill 1M. All planet attacking weapons(ie planet conditions exc.) need 20 damage to kill 1M and weapons that only kill population need 4 damage to kill 1M.

A whole reballance on how weapons works in game is needed. Many just become useless when the puny early game weapons becomes a dreadnaugh killing weapons at level 100 (besides the fact most weapons are pretty much the same damage wise at level 100). Many weapons and devices become quite useless as battles end in the blink of an eye and most of the subtilities of the game becomes lost...

Alternatively, maybe defenses need a rebalance instead?

In my much-talked-about-but-never-finished mod, I'm going with a system wherein all components have 100 levels (well, lots of them) and instead ofusing the standard linear formula, the equations all follow something along the lines of: [base] * 1.10 ^ [%level%]. When level hits its maximum at 100, you're looking at over 13K the "base" value, so high-tech ships can still "clean out" low tech ships.

Level 1, 2, 3, etch etc

1.1 1.21 1.33 1.46 1.61 1.77 1.95 2.14

Thus, you hvae stuff doubling 7 tech levels or so, which is reasonable enough. If you fall behind in the tech race you WILL hurt... but it should take long enough for that to happen for an alert emporer to counteract the situation (amongst other things, I'm revamping the formulas for research to use a reasonable scaling system for my research system, so I can give the various techs "ridiculous" tech ammounts... assuming the formulas work the way I think, at least).

Applying that to both defenses and weapons makes for a good sitation

Of course, some things -- like ECM/ECCM/Sensors/Cloaking/Engines definatly do NOT need to work that way. I'm going to need to figure something else out for that.
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There are 10 types of people in the world:

Those that understand binary, and those that don't.

Weapons do an insane amount of damage at level 100, unless armor and shields can soak several k of damage, they don't last long. Besides, most players would just add more guns to their ships...

And what is the difference between one weapon or the other at thoses level? They all do pretty much the same amount, only the reload and range really matter at that point (who worry about supplies and ammos at end game?).

Haven't any of you played MP? Prepare to face 10+ weapon platforms, troops and countless facilities that will absorb your damage. Remember, damage to planets is spread evenly among everything on it. NOT using bombardment weapons means you will lose about twice as many ships trying to take the planet.

Using regular up-to-date frigates against a planet, it took two waves of twenty ships to take out a 12 platform planet using regular weapons.

With planet bombardent frigates i still lost a whole wave of ships, but the planet was destroyed as well. In a serious game, they make all the difference.

In SeIV I had gone into the data files and changed what was able to be targeted by certain weapons in order to force the AI to use certain weapons for certain jobs (i.e. PD for PD not main guns, Bombs for planetary bombardment etc.). This was based off what I felt was more realistic. You don't use a 155mm Howitzer to knock down an F-18 so why would you use a main gun to take out a fighter? You also do not use a ships main gun to take out Infantry reistance accurately prior to the actual assualt. So I modded the "can target" line and it seemed to work for me. It really changed how bigger and smaller ships had to protect themselves from fighters. I had also changed the movement rates of the smaller ships (destroyers and Frigates) to make them more agile and vialble later in the game.

Hmmmm I was actually going to suggest the opposite. Make lower level weapon upgrades give more of a difference, but higher level upgrades a lesser difference, based on a curve formula.

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting, could you give me the formula / suggested numbers?

What I'm proposing keeps the same RELATIVE value between any given sets of values; e. g. the strength of level X weapon will ALWAYS be 1.1 times the strength of level X-1. While the absolute difference becomes MUCH larger at higher levels, its the relative values that are important.
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There are 10 types of people in the world:

Those that understand binary, and those that don't.

I've never been a fan of the higher level = more damage approach, at least not substatianally. In my never-talked-about-and-not-even-started mod, I prefer having higher levels equate to improved cost, size, supply utilization, armor penetration, etc. Substantial changes in damage come from either from 1) increasing weapon size or 2) new technologies.

As for increased weapon sizes, this should be achievable through component enhancements, much like weapon mounts. However, more of them would be needed to provide more options for sizing. Also, such enhancements would be available from the start. Each increase in size increases cost and supply useage, while providing diminishing improvements in damage.

My rationale is 1) it seems more realistic, but more importantly 2) it adds to the strategic possibilities available at the start. More strategies = more variety = more fun. At least that's how it worked with miniatures, so I figured it should work for SE5.

Viking

Critical thinking is a mental habit - William Graham Sumner

Personally, I don't use planetary bombardment weapons. As you have guessed, they're pretty much useless.

I can't believe how much junks are crammed into the components data.

Like the other guy said, I can see the use of planet bombardments weapons in serious games. If you have to attack a planet that has weapon platforms, bases and satelites, you better have something that deals a lot of damage... You can build up defenses so much, just think of how much cargo a huge planet has.

I'd just pick a weapon with better range than the planet, like CSMs. Even if the planet has its own CSMs, I can strafebomb and outrun the planet's missiles so they expire from lack of range, while the planet cannot dodge mine.

On second thought, maybe the classic RPG approach is better. That is, every level up gives the same boost in power, but each level costs more to level up. Start at 20, and give it +5 per level (simple example, weapon choice would varry). Defenses would have to do the same. I think this would allow a few tech levels difference to not be ridiculously overwhelming, but still a respectable advantage.
It would need a 1-100 level scheme available, not so much for BM which cuts it down significantly (which I really wish it didn't do anyway, lol).

*considers getting into modding* hmmmm

give it a go, download it and see what you think of it, some prople love this mod and think its the best thing since sliced bread, whilst others like certain features but not others, and some seem to hate it. So you download the bits and make your own mind up on it

Oh and poor Captain Kwok who has put lots of time and effort into this good mod seems to get torn to shreds for even daring to mention it , which i think is just plain wrong and unfair.

Well, it wasn't nearly that bad. Really just a misinterpretation - all parties had the welfare of SE:V in mind.

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But back on topic, while regular weapons should have some effect against planets I agree with the general consensus that bombardment weapons need to be several times more effective to be useful. But before that is done, planets need to be "structurally" fortified so a typically colony can hold out for a few combats against a moderately sized fleet.

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Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod

Captain Kwok wrote:

But back on topic, while regular weapons should have some effect against planets I agree with the general consensus that bombardment weapons need to be several times more effective to be useful. But before that is done, planets need to be "structurally" fortified so a typically colony can hold out for a few combats against a moderately sized fleet.

I would say the effects of regular weapons against planets need to be drasticaly reduced, having had a play with bombardment weaposn I have found them to be about right they can kill minor planets fairly easily but you need to ramp up the levels to take on a homeworld.

As I have said before I really do think that planets need to be upgraded in defence.

How about giving planets "milita weapons platforms" in the same way they have "milita troops". Make them "fairly small and weak" in comparison too what you can build but there as freebies that are generated when the planet is attacked so they are always upto date technology wise. This would be another way to make early game conquest or annihilation a lot more difficult.

I'm not sure how a moderate fleet could beat any planet that has weapon platforms. If they automatically gave WPs a few bonus range, it would be like in SEIV : a planet could build tremendous defense.

Just do a test. In my homeworld, I could put a max of 78 cheap Wps, carrying 3 missiles each. That's about the amount of firepower needed to disable one ship... so by controlling all the missiles, I could destroy a fleet of 78 small ships before they even got to my planet. The problem is micromanaging every single weapon... they should add some general strategy, like "scatter fire" and "concentrate fire on one target at a time".

I am not suggesting the "milita" weapons platforms are kick ass, but fairly basic and not very many of them.

Any planetry defenses can be over come if you setup the attack fleet right, I like the idea of taking in a fleet that has a number of pure PD ships.... with a mixture of different PD guns that fire at different ranges it should be possible to provide enough flak cover for a heavily sheilded and armoured assault ship (or 3) to do a run on a planet and off load its troops before they blow up.

In SEIV I modded the mounts that dealt with planetary defense to give them Very Long Range (to simulate built in stations) and more damage (due to be built in place). The results gave me and the AI great planetary security where they were present. I had also modded the main weapon systems for different types of targeting to force the AI and myself to use Bombs and Missles vice just shoot Meson Beams at the planet. This resulted in the AI and myself having to design ships with bombs or missles to attack planets while under extremly (in some cases) heavy fire before the ships were in range to launch there weapons. Last night I modded the same stuff but this time made the beam/cannon type weaponry able to target "buildings and weapon platforms" to give a more real approach of being able to target something with your ships main weapons. Bombs and missles could still do mass damage but at a cost to the planet.

Since the last time i logged .

Viking :

But it's also part of history that weapons systems improve and becomes more lethal over time. Take firearms. The first ones were one shot weapons, innacurate, very slow reload and were not very practical in close quarters (but they were already quite lethal). But centuries later, firearms are much more accurate, faster firing, have a lot more range and comes in many shapes and sizes. I think it's realistic that weapons get more powerful with levels. But there should be a bit more to this than just added damage each levels...

But i agree, more mounts and combination of devices / upgrades makes things more fun. But, too much make it very difficult to make a challenging AI if the human player can always make better designs than it... Also, too much complexity can be quite difficult to ballance and debug (as it is already the case with this very complicated game).

Hence why I suggest (likely in mods as this is a balance issue) new damage types be added for bombardment weapons. Assume that the population go underground in pre-made civilian bunkers when alien warships are looming above their skies - ordinary weapons shouldn't be effective at killing people though destroying facilities is another matter.

The Bombardment weapons then get a separate category and the physics behind them justifies this - going underground can save you from nukes and big projectile hits, but Planetary Plasma (hmm... make the Plasma Missile a bombardment weapon for variety?) will melt through the fortified doors and trickle down into the bunkers themselves to kill people. Doubly true with Neutron bombs - only weapons designed to commit genocide should be truly efficient in killing population. Ordinary weapons may be able to tear down the facilities and weapon platforms, but the colony itself will be very hard to wipe out as people will emerge again afterwards.

What about domes? Surely traditional weapons would be very effective agaisnt them, yes you can send people to live in shelters but trying to maintain a population in the hundreds of millions is going to be difficult.

That said I do think that ship weaponry is far to effective against planets at the moment, I would think reducing the damage they do by at least a factor of 10 would make things far better, I also wouldn't have them be very good against weapons platforms, after all these have been designed and built to protect the planet. I would just add specific anti-WP weapons to the planetry bombardment weapons.